[MUSIC] >>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

I'M DAVID DUMKE.

TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY ACTOR, ACTIVIST, AND AUTHOR KAL PENN.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>>THANKS, DAVID.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>YOU RECENTLY WROTE A BOOK.

TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT AND WHY YOU WROTE IT.

>>SURE.

SO I WROTE A MEMOIR CALLED "YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS" THAT, I AM HOPING, IS SORT OF EQUAL PARTS FUNNY AND EQUAL PARTS INSIGHTFUL.

THE REASON THAT I THAT I WROTE IT WAS I'VE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF THIS JOURNEY WHERE MY BACKGROUND IS MOSTLY IN COMEDY AND ENTERTAINMENT, ESPECIALLY TELEVISION AND MOVIES.

AND THEN I TOOK A SABBATICAL FOR ABOUT TWO AND A HALF YEARS FROM ACTING TO WORK IN THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE AS A AS AN AIDE TO THE PRESIDENT AND AS THE SON OF IMMIGRANTS, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHERE I THINK, YOU KNOW, I'M FROM A GENERATION WHERE PARENTS AND GUIDANCE COUNSELORS AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS SORT OF SAID, PICK ONE THING IN LIFE AND STICK TO IT.

NOWADAYS, WE LIVE IN A WORLD THAT ENCOURAGES YOU TO HAVE MULTIPLE PASSIONS AND MULTIPLE INTERESTS.

AND I THOUGHT MIGHT BE AN INTERESTING TIME TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT MY EXPERIENCES.

THE SUBTEXT OF THE BOOK IS HOW SYSTEMS CAN AND DO CHANGE OVER TIME, BUT THEN YOU KNOW, IT'S IT'S SPRINKLED IN WITH SOME SOME HUMOR.

AND IT'S IT'S KIND OF LIKE, I GUESS MY GOALS WERE IF I COULD IF I COULD GO WITH LIKE A - A TINA FEY, MINDY KALING SORT OF APPROACH TO SOMETHING THAT ALSO HAS SERIOUSNESS OF OF POLITICS AND ORGANIZING AND POLICY AND DIVERSITY.

AND THEN THAT'S THE BOOK.

>>SO WELL, SOME OF IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE SERIOUS.

AND YOU PRESENTED IT IN A COMEDIC WAY IN SOME CASES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION THAT KEPT COMING UP IS YOU'RE A STRUGGLING ACTOR RISING IS, WHERE ARE YOU FROM?

SO TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT SOME.

>>YOU KNOW, THE FIRST THIRD OF THE BOOK I THINK, TALKS A LOT ABOUT ABOUT IDENTITY.

I WAS SOMEBODY WHO I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN NEW JERSEY.

>>RIGHT.

IT'S A VERY EXOTIC PLACE.

>>EXACTLY.

A SUBURB OF NEW YORK CITY.

>>RIGHT.

AND AND THE TOWN THAT I GREW UP IN WAS I WOULDN'T SAY IT WAS IT WASN'T RACIALLY DIVERSE, BUT IT WAS CERTAINLY ETHNICALLY DIVERSE.

SO I WAS ONE OF SEVERAL BROWN KIDS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BIG JEWISH COMMUNITY, BIG POLISH ITALIAN COMMUNITY, A LOT OF SECOND GENERATION, FIRST AND SECOND GENERATION FAMILIES.

SO MY PEERS WOULD YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD BE AT HOME SPEAKING ITALIAN OR POLISH OR, YOU KNOW, EATING DIFFERENT FOODS.

SO THIS THIS NOTION THAT WE HEAR ABOUT A LOT WHERE THE KIDS OF IMMIGRANTS FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE ONE FOOT IN TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS.

THAT WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE.

I UNDERSTAND WHY A LOT OF FOLKS HAVE THAT EXPERIENCE, BUT I ALREADY STARTED OUT WITH I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT IN WHO I AM.

AND BEING BILINGUAL AND HAVING A DIFFERENT CULTURAL EXPERIENCE TO ME IS WHAT MAKES US AMERICAN, RIGHT?

SO THAT WAS NEVER A REAL QUESTION FOR ME.

THE QUESTION WAS WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THOUGHT.

SO I STARTED OUT, YOU KNOW, I WENT TO A PUBLICLY FUNDED PERFORMING ARTS HIGH SCHOOL IN NEW JERSEY.

IT'S PROBABLY ONE OF THE ONLY REASONS THAT A KID LIKE ME COULD GET THE CONFIDENCE TO PURSUE THE ARTS AS A CAREER, MOVE TO CALIFORNIA, TO GO TO UNDERGRAD, BUT THEN ALSO TO PURSUE AN ACTING CAREER.

AND ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT I WOULD HEAR WHEN I WOULD GO ON AUDITIONS, "WHERE ARE YOU FROM?"

AND I WOULD SAY, I'M FROM NEW JERSEY.

AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WOULD SAY THINGS LIKE, OH, WHY IS YOUR ENGLISH SO GOOD?

AND I WAS LIKE, I MEAN, I'M FROM NEW JERSEY.

WHY DOES YOUR ENGLISH SUCK?

YOU SAID YOU'RE FROM MILWAUKEE!

AND YOU KNOW, THAT IDEA, ESPECIALLY LATE NINETIES, EARLY 2000S, THIS NOTION OF SOMEBODY NOT BEING REALLY AMERICAN AND WHATEVER THAT MEANT, THAT WASN'T THE EXPERIENCE THAT I NECESSARILY GREW UP WITH, BUT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I LEARNED LIKE, OKAY, THE PERCEPTION OF YOU AND THIS IS FOR ANY ACTOR, REALLY, RIGHT?

EVERY ACTOR IS TYPECAST NO MATTER WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.

SO IT'S NOT UNIQUE IN THAT SENSE, BUT THE THING THAT I DISCOVERED WAS THE UNIQUENESS IN TYPECASTING, AND THIS HAS WONDERFULLY CHANGED OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, OBVIOUSLY, BUT MY ACTING TEACHER USED TO SAY, YOU KNOW, YOU'LL YOU'LL SOMETIMES NOT GET PARTS.

YOU MIGHT BE THE BEST ONE, BUT YOU'RE TOO TALL, YOU'RE TOO SHORT, YOU'RE TOO FAT, YOU'RE TOO SKINNY, YOU'RE TOO SOMETHING FOR THE PRODUCERS WHEN THEY'VE GOT THIS ARRAY OF PEOPLE THEY CAN CHOOSE FROM.

WHAT I WASN'T EXPECTING WAS THAT A LOT OF PERFORMERS OF COLOR, STILL NOW, BUT REALLY ESPECIALLY DURING THAT TIME PERIOD, DIDN'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING TOO FAT, TOO SKINNY, TOO TALL, TOO SHORT, BECAUSE IT WAS EITHER DOES THE PRODUCER WANT SOMEONE WHO'S QUOTE UNQUOTE, "ETHNIC" OR NOT?

AND AND SO THAT WAS A THING THAT I REALIZED, OKAY, THE GLASS CEILING THERE WAS WAS PARTICULARLY HIGH AND THE BARRIER TO ENTRY WAS PARTICULARLY HIGH, AND SO WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU, YOU KNOW.

OBVIOUSLY PREPARE TO WORK A THOUSAND TIMES HARDER, PREPARE TO GET YOUR FOOT IN THE DOOR, BUT SO SOME OF THE EARLY STORIES, THE REASON THAT I TELL THEM WITH WITH HUMOR IS, I THINK ESPECIALLY IN TODAY'S CLIMATE, WERE UNDERSTANDABLY FIXATED ON INDIVIDUAL ACTORS, RIGHT?

THIS PERSON DID SOMETHING WRONG.

THIS PERSON SAID SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T LIKE.

BUT WHEN THESE THINGS ARE SO SYSTEMIC, I WANTED TO PRESENT IT IN A WAY THAT A) IS FUNNY AND SELF-DEPRECATING, BUT B) SORT OF SHOWS US HOW FAR WE'VE COME IN A 20 YEAR ARC AND HOW MUCH FURTHER THERE IS TO GO.

IT'S A BEAUTY FOR ARTISTS, BUT ALSO FOR AUDIENCES.

NO MATTER WHAT YOUR POLITICS ARE, WE ALL LOVE TURNING ON THE TV.

IF COVID TAUGHT US ANYTHING, IT'S LIKE YOU KNOW, YOU BLAST THROUGH ALL OF YOUR STREAMING PLATFORMS.

IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE LOVE.

WE LOVE CONTENT.

AND HOW WE GOT FROM THAT PLACE TO THIS PLACE WAS SOMETHING I WANTED TO EXPLORE.

>>ONE OF YOU WRITE A LOT ABOUT BEING TYPECAST IN SOME OF YOUR EARLY, EARLY CAREERS, AND SOME OF THEM ARE QUITE FUNNY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, LIKE VAN WILDER, THE NAME ITSELF IS JUST OVER THE TOP IN MANY WAYS, IN WAYS THAT I DIDN'T KNOW WAS THERE.

BUT - BUT YOU WENT FROM BEING TYPECAST AN ACTOR TO BEING A LEAD ACTOR.

THAT IT DIDN'T REALLY MATTER WHO WHAT THE ETHNICITY WAS OF THE LEAD ACTOR.

HOW DID THAT EVOLUTION HAPPEN TO YOU AND WHEN DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAD SEEN A CHANGE?

>>YEAH, YOU KNOW, EARLY ON THERE WAS THERE WAS A LOT OF FRUSTRATION WITH WITH THE STEREOTYPICAL AUDITIONS.

AND I'M THE FIRST PERSON TO SAY, YOU KNOW OFTENTIMES WE HEAR OF STEREOTYPES AND PEOPLE WILL SAY, WELL, THAT CHARACTER HAD AN ACCENT.

THAT'S A STEREOTYPE.

PLENTY OF PEOPLE HAVE ACCENTS A - A ACCENT ALONE OBVIOUSLY, IT DOESN'T MAKE A STEREOTYPE.

I THINK WHAT A LOT OF FOLKS REFER TO IS, YOU KNOW, GENERALLY HISTORICALLY, AT LEAST CHARACTERS, COMEDIC CHARACTERS WITH ACCENTS ARE GIVEN ACCENTS TO MASK SUBPAR WRITING.

AND SO IF A CHARACTER'S ONLY FUNCTION IS THEIR ETHNICITY, IS THEIR ACCENT, IS THEIR RACE THEN THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY DOING ANYTHING.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY AGENCY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BUT THE FAR MORE DETAIL IN THE BOOK ABOUT CHOOSING TO TAKE THOSE, NOBODY FORCED ME TO TAKE PARTS LIKE THAT, BUT I TOOK THEM BECAUSE I WANTED TO BUILD UP MY RESUME.

AND IT TURNED OUT THAT SOME OF THE SMARTER DIRECTORS AND PRODUCERS, THE ONES WHO I WOULD WANT TO WORK WITH ANYWAY, LOVED SUBVERTING TYPE OR EVEN STEREOTYPE.

SO SMALLER PARTS LIKE THIS PART IN VAN WILDER THAN LED TO THE MOVIE HAROLD AND KUMAR GO TO WHITE CASTLE, WHICH REALLY WAS A CAREER CHANGER FOR FOR ME AND FOR FOR JOHN CHO THAT THEN LED TO PARTS IN 24 AND SUPERMAN RETURNS AND THE NAMESAKE, ALL OF WHICH IF YOU SAW HAROLD AND KUMAR GO TO WHITE CASTLE, YOU WOULDN'T THINK, LET'S PUT THEM IN A SUPERHERO MOVIE OR A GRITTY, INDEPENDENT DRAMA.

BUT THAT'S REALLY, I THINK, A TESTAMENT TO THE TYPES OF OF WRITERS AND PRODUCERS AND DIRECTORS WHO I WANTED TO WORK WITH ANYWAY, BUT A LOT OF GRATITUDE TOWARDS THEM.

>>SO WHO WERE SOME OF YOUR ROLE MODELS AS YOU'RE-- >>GROWING UP?

YOUR - WELL GROWING UP BUT ALSO GIVEN GIVEN YOUR BACKGROUND WHO RESONATED MORE THAN ANY?

>>SO THE THREE THAT REALLY COME TO MIND AND THERE ARE OTHERS BUT MIRA NAIR WHO'S A WONDERFUL DIRECTOR ONE OF HER FIRST FILMS I REMEMBER SEEING WHEN I WAS A KID, WHEN I WAS IN SEVENTH OR EIGHTH GRADE, IT WAS CALLED MISSISSIPPI MASALA WITH DENZEL WASHINGTON.

DENZEL IS ANOTHER PERSON WHOSE CAREER I'VE LONG ADMIRED SINCE I WAS A KID.

AND THEN TOM HANKS.

I MEAN, TOM HANKS CAN BE SO FUNNY AND DO SOMETHING AS AS BROAD AS BIG, RIGHT, AND THEN BE THE MOST DRAMATIC ACTOR YOU'VE EVER SEEN.

SO THOSE THREE AND THAT PART, I MEAN.

>>AND BACHELOR PARTY, DON'T FORGET.

>>YEAH, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING.

THE WHOLE, THE WIDE ARRAY LIKE YOU LOVE THIS GUY BECAUSE OF THE AUTHENTICITY OF HIS PERFORMANCES.

SO SO THOSE WERE THREE FOLKS WHO HAVE I HAVE HAD REALLY ADMIRED.

FINALLY HAVE THE CHANCE TO WORK WITH MIRA NAIR ON THE NAMESAKE, WHICH IS A FILM BASED ON A NOVEL THAT I THAT I GOT TO DO.

AND SO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

COMING FULL CIRCLE ALSO WAS JUST A VERY A VERY SPECIAL BOOKEND.

>>SO YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT AND YOUR EXPERIENCES AS - AS AN ASIAN-AMERICAN HERE, BUT YOU ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAVE DEEP ROOTS IN INDIA.

TELL TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR YOUR PARENTS BACKGROUND AND THEN YOUR OWN KIND OF RETURN TO INDIA TO WORK ON DIFFERENT PROJECTS.

>>SURE.

SO MY PARENTS ARE PART OF THE POST-1965 WAVE OF IMMIGRATION.

SO THEY THEY MOVED HERE IN THE EARLY SEVENTIES.

A LOT OF FOLKS IS A GREAT A GREAT OPPORTUNITY TO DISPELL THIS.

I DO IT IN THE BOOK WITH SOME JOKES.

BUT EVERYONE THINKS THE REASON THERE ARE SO MANY BROWN AND YELLOW DOCTORS AND ENGINEERS IS SO THERE'S SOMETHING INHERENT IN OUR DNA.

I WISH THAT WAS TRUE.

MY SAT SCORES WILL REFLECT THAT THAT IS FALSE.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A LABOR SHORTAGE IN THE SIXTIES IN FIELDS LIKE MEDICINE, ENGINEERING, PHARMACY, ETC.

AND SO THAT'S WHY YOU HAD SO MANY ASIAN-AMERICANS AS A WHOLE FILLING THOSE JOBS.

THAT'S WHAT ALLOWED MY PARENTS TO COME HERE.

THEY WERE PURSUING THOSE FIELDS.

GO BACK ONE GENERATION.

MY GRANDPARENTS WHO LIVED WITH US WHEN I WAS GROWING UP, THEY MARCHED WITH GANDHI WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER.

AND SO THE STORIES THAT I WOULD HEAR AT THE DINNER TABLE AS A CHILD WERE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MY GRANDFATHER BEING BEATEN AND JAILED BY BRITISH SOLDIERS FOR STANDING UP FOR HUMAN RIGHTS.

MY GRANDMOTHER, YOU KNOW, BURNING FOR AND MADE CLOTHES AS PART OF THIS, YOU KNOW, BIG GANDHIAN PHILOSOPHY.

I NEVER VIEWED THAT AS ACTIVISM.

I NEVER VIEWED IT AS POLITICS IN OUR HOUSEHOLD.

IT WAS JUST PRESENTED AS DOING THE RIGHT THING.

THIS IS WHAT YOU DO.

AND IT REALLY THIS IS GOING TO SOUND SO SILLY.

IT WASN'T PROBABLY UNTIL MIDDLE SCHOOL THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING MORE THAN JUST A PARAGRAPH IN A HISTORY BOOK ABOUT THE CONNECTION BETWEEN GANDHI'S NONVIOLENT CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE AND OUR OWN AMERICAN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, DR. KING AND OTHERS.

AND THAT WAS THE MOMENT THAT SOMETHING CLICKED I SAID, "WELL, THE SACRIFICES MY GRANDPARENTS MADE ARE NOT THAT DIFFERENT FROM THESE GLOBAL MOVEMENTS, OUR OWN AMERICAN, VERY PATRIOTIC MOVEMENTS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS."

SO THAT'S ALWAYS STUCK WITH ME.

AND IT'S ALWAYS JUST SORT OF AN APPROACH TO THE WORLD THAT I AGAIN NEVER SAW THROUGH THE LENS OF POLITICS, BUT RATHER THROUGH DOING THE RIGHT THING.

>>WHEN YOU LOOK AT, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST MENTIONED MARTIN LUTHER KING AND GANDHI AND, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS.

BUT YOU SEE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN TODAY'S UNITED STATES AND IN INDIA, FRANKLY, MORE DIVISION.

>>YES.

>>BASED ON - ON SECT OR BASED ON ETHNICITY.

HOW DO YOU HOW DOES THAT MOTIVATE YOU TO DO YOUR WORK OFF THE SCREEN AND ON THE SCREEN?

>>SURE.

YEAH LOOK, ON SCREEN, IT'S A LITTLE IT'S A LITTLE MORE MUDDY BECAUSE I LOVE PLAYING CHARACTERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME.

AND TO ME, THE REAL ARTISTIC THRILL IS PLAYING SOMEBODY WITH WHOM YOU MIGHT COMPLETELY DISAGREE, WHOSE TOTAL EXPERIENCE IS JUST A VERY DIFFERENT BEAST.

AND THOSE STORIES CAN BE TOUGH, BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE UNIFYING.

ONE OF THE REASONS I LOVE COMEDY IS THE WORLD THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, ESPECIALLY IN THE US TODAY.

AND SOUTH ASIA, THINGS ARE SO POLARIZED THE IDEA THAT COMEDY, WHAT DO WE HAVE?

WE HAVE COMEDY, SPORTS AND SOMETIMES FOOD THAT CAN STILL BRING PEOPLE TOGETHER, RIGHT?

SO IT'S ONE OF THE JOYS OF WHAT I DO, AS IN THE COMEDY SPACES.

IF I CAN ALLOW YOU AND YOUR CRAZY UNCLE TO SIT NEXT TO EACH OTHER AT THANKSGIVING AND WATCH SOMETHING AND LAUGH TOGETHER, THEN I'VE DONE MY JOB, RIGHT?

BECAUSE THAT MEANS THAT WE STILL SHARE THOSE BONDS OF HAPPINESS AND CELEBRATION IN TERMS OF THE THE ORGANIZING PART AND SORT OF MY MY LIFE OFF SCREEN.

>>YEAH.

LOOK, AS THE AS THE GRANDSON OF GHANDIANS OBVIOUSLY, MY WORLDVIEW IS PARTICULARLY SECULAR.

I DON'T FEEL PARTICULARLY THREATENED WHEN SOMEBODY OF A DIFFERENT FAITH OR A DIFFERENT BACKGROUND IS AROUND ME.

AND IT'S REALLY SCARY THAT WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE TOLERANCE SEEMS TO BE GOING DOWN.

THE MANIPULATION OF IDENTITY FOR POLITICAL GAIN SEEMS TO BE I MEAN, DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ON THE RISE.

IT'S OBVIOUSLY ON THE RISE.

IT MOTIVATES IT CERTAINLY MOTIVATES MY WORK.

I'M NOT A YELLER.

I THINK ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE DOING A SHOW LIKE THIS AND I'M NOT ON CABLE NEWS SHOUTING AT SOMEBODY IS I DON'T THINK THAT PARTICULARLY SOLVES ANYTHING.

YOU KNOW I HAVE FRIENDS WITH DIFFERENT POLITICAL BELIEFS.

I THINK THIS IS LOW HANGING FRUIT HERE.

BUT IF WE - IF WE NO LONGER TALK TO PEOPLE WE DISAGREE WITH, THEN YOU'RE JUST ENTIRELY IN THE SILOED ECHO CHAMBER, RIGHT?

YOU'RE GETTING YOUR NEWS FROM SOMETHING DIGITAL.

YOU'RE YOU'RE NEVER HAVING A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT SOMEBODY ELSE'S HOPES AND DREAMS ARE.

AND IT'S VERY EASY TO GET CONVINCED THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS A MONOLITHIC ENEMY.

AND THAT'S JUST NOT THE CASE, SO.

>>SO IS THAT CONSCIOUS OF YOU?

I MEAN, MICHAEL JORDAN ONCE SAID, YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS BUY TENNIS SHOES, TOO, WHEN HE WAS - THEY WERE ASKING HIM WHY HE WASN'T POLITICAL, POLITICALLY ACTIVE.

SO I'M WONDERING WITH YOU, YOU'RE AN ACTOR, YOU'RE A PERFORMER, SO YOU'RE APPEALING TO A BROAD AUDIENCE.

IS THAT CONSCIOUS OF YOU?

OF I DON'T WANT TO GO TOO FAR THIS WAY OR THIS WAY?

>>I MEAN, TO ME, MY ART IS NOT NECESSARILY IN THE REALM OF POLITICS.

AND HERE'S WHAT I MEAN BY THAT.

ABOUT A DECADE AGO, WE DID THIS MOVIE, HAROLD AND KUMAR ESCAPE FROM GUANTANAMO BAY, ALL RIGHT?

>>I RECALL THAT SOME POLITICAL THERE WERE.

>>RIGHT.

SO THAT'S A MOVIE ABOUT THESE TWO STORIES WHO GET SENT TO GUANTANAMO BAY.

NOW, THE MOVIE IS A SATIRE, RIGHT?

AND I REMEMBER THIS IS BEFORE I WORKED FOR THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION, BEFORE I HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH D.C.

I WAS AT AN EVENT IN D.C. THAT SOMEONE INVITED ME TO, AND THERE WAS A SENIOR MEMBER OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION THERE WHO SAID, HEY, YOU'RE VERY FUNNY.

THAT MOVIE YOU DID ABOUT GUANTANAMO BAY, WAS HILARIOUS.

AND I SAID, REALLY?

YOU'VE SEEN IT?

AND THIS PERSON SAID, YEAH, WE'VE ALL SEEN IT.

IT'S HILARIOUS.

ARE WE NOT SUPPOSED TO FIND THAT HILARIOUS?

AND I SAID, NO, YOU WERE.

AND HERE'S WHAT YOU'VE JUST PROVEN TO ME IS WE WENT THROUGH GREAT LENGTHS TO MAKE SURE THAT SATIRE REMAINS SATIRE.

RIGHT.

THAT YOU CAN TAKE AWAY SOMETHING THAT YOU WANT FROM IT.

WE'RE HOLDING UP A MIRROR, CERTAINLY TO THE THINGS THAT EXIST IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT OUR BIG TAKEAWAY WAS EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ABLE TO LAUGH AT THIS MOVIE IF YOU WANT TO LAUGH AT A DUMB STONER COMEDY WITH UNDERCURRENTS OF WHAT IT IS.

SO, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW, RIGHT?

BECAUSE WHEN WOULD I EVER RUN INTO SOMEBODY WHO'S PART OF THAT ADMINISTRATION?

SO WHAT THAT SHOWED ME IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE ASKING, THAT I LOVE WHEN YOU CAN MAKE ANYBODY LAUGH.

AND TO ME, AND THIS IS MAYBE ME PUTTING ON MY CULTURAL DIPLOMACY HAT AND BEING A LITTLE NERDY, BUT TO ME, THE IDEA OF ART BEING ABLE TO UNIFY PEOPLE OR EVEN SOMETHING AS COMMERCIAL AS A STONER MOVIE, THE IDEA THAT THAT CAN STILL CREATE A CULTURE WHERE PEOPLE GET ALONG IS IMPORTANT TO ME.

NOW, WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?

CAN PEOPLE DISSECT A FILM AND AND CAN THAT HELP MOVE CONVERSATIONS AROUND POLICY?

ABSOLUTELY.

BUT THAT CERTAINLY WASN'T THE INTENTION OF THE FILM.

>>YOU JUST MENTIONED IT.

SO I'LL ASK YOU ABOUT GOING INTO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.

SO YOU'RE WRITING MOST OF THIS BOOK ABOUT THE STRUGGLE TO ACTUALLY SUCCEED AND KIND OF MADE IT TALK ABOUT THE TERRIBLE CARS YOU DROVE AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN >>THE BORROWED CAR.

>>RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT.

AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN THERE.

AND THEN SUDDENLY YOU'VE MADE IT AND IT'S LIKE YOU'RE IN HOUSE AT THE TIME, I BELIEVE.

>>RIGHT.

>>AND IT'S LIKE YOU'RE IN A SUCCESSFUL TV SERIES.

AND SO NOW IS THE TIME TO GO WORK FOR GOVERNMENT.

>>I - YES.

I GUESS IF PRESENTED THAT.

ALSO, THE OTHER THING IS I ALWAYS SAY IF THE ONLY THING YOU KNOW ABOUT ME IS THAT I'VE PLAYED A STONER AND A DOCTOR ON TV, WHAT THE HECK MADE YOU QUALIFIED TO BE A PRESIDENTIAL AIDE?

ALL VALID QUESTIONS.

YOU READ THE BOOKS.

YOU KNOW, IT'S A MORE COMPLICATED ANSWER, BUT ESSENTIALLY, LOOK, I - I WAS WORKING ON THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN FOR ABOUT A YEAR, JUST AS A VOLUNTEER.

THERE WAS AN EVENT THAT OLIVIA WILDE, A VERY TALENTED ACTOR DIRECTOR, INVITED ME TO.

SHE WAS ON HOUSE WITH ME AT THE TIME.

I THINK I ONLY SAID YES TO GO TO THIS EVENT BECAUSE IT WAS AN OPEN BAR.

>>RIGHT.

>>AND SO, YOU KNOW, AFTER A COUPLE OF GLASSES OF WINE, I WAS INSPIRED.

I SAID I WOULD SIGN UP TO VOLUNTEER FOR, IT WAS JUST SUPPOSED TO BE A WEEKEND OF CAMPAIGNING AND AND I REALLY WAS - WAS TRULY INSPIRED WHEN I WENT TO IOWA FOR STATE TO VOTE IN THE PRIMARY PROCESS.

RIGHT.

AND I ENDED UP JOINING THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN, MOSTLY WORKING ON YOUTH OUTREACH AND THE NOW FORMER PRESIDENT'S ARTS POLICY COMMITTEE.

I WAS GOING TO GRAD SCHOOL AT THE TIME FOR A CERTIFICATE IN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AND HADN'T REALLY - THAT WASN'T PART OF MY ACTING LIFE, OBVIOUSLY.

BUT THERE WAS AN INTEREST THERE.

NOBODY THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO WIN IOWA.

CERTAINLY NOBODY THOUGHT HE WAS GOING TO WIN THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION.

AND SO A YEAR LATER, YOU KNOW, HAVING GONE TO 26 DIFFERENT STATES ON BEHALF OF THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN, ANY POLITICAL CAMPAIGN FROM PRESIDENT ALL THE WAY DOWN TO SCHOOL BOARD.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU START EARLY ENOUGH, IT'S SORT OF YOU'RE IN THE CENTER OF WHAT BECOMES CONCENTRIC CIRCLES AROUND YOU.

AND SO THERE WAS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE.

AND I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO SAY NO.

LIKE, WHAT DO YOU SAY?

"NO, MR. PRESIDENT.

I HAVE ANOTHER STONER MOVIE TO MAKE.

I CANNOT SERVE MY COUNTRY."

BUT YOUR POINT IS A GOOD ONE.

I THINK YOU'RE - YOU'RE RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, I HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING ON A, YOU KNOW, BEING SINGLE, WELL-PAID TV SHOW.

I COULD TAKE A SABBATICAL TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

TO ME, WHAT WAS REALLY MOST REMARKABLE WAS NOT THAT I WAS AN ACTOR WHO WAS ABLE TO TAKE A SABBATICAL TO SERVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING AND WHO DO THE EXACT SAME THING LITERALLY EVERY YEAR.

AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY, EVERY PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATION HAS THOSE FOLKS, PARTICULARLY IF YOU'RE AN OUTSIDER, RIGHT?

YOU SAW THAT OBAMA WAS A DEMOCRATIC PARTY OUTSIDER FOR THE MAJORITY OF HIS FIRST TERM.

TRUMP WAS A REPUBLICAN PARTY OUTSIDER FOR AT LEAST THE FIRST TWO YEARS OF HIS TERM.

AND SO THE FOLKS WHO JOINED WERE PEOPLE WHO TOOK SABBATICALS FROM WHATEVER THEY WERE WORKING ON.

BUT THAT HAPPENS AT EVERY LEVEL THAT HAPPENS WITH PEOPLE'S CHURCH GROUPS, MOSQUE, YOU KNOW, SYNAGOGUE, ALL OF THAT.

THAT'S TO ME WHAT MAKES A REALLY VIBRANT DEMOCRACY.

AND WE RARELY GET TO HEAR ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE.

I UNDERSTAND, OKAY, I LEFT THE TV SHOW TO WORK FOR THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT.

LET'S LOOK AT WHAT THAT IS.

BUT TO ME, THAT'S NOT THE REAL STORY.

THE REAL STORY IS ALL OF THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING THE SAME THING.

>>SO WHILE YOU WERE WORKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU WERE ENGAGING WITH DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES, NOT JUST THE COMMUNITIES YOU WERE NECESSARILY FAMILIAR WITH, BUT ALL KINDS OF COMMUNITIES.

WHAT ARE A COUPLE OF THE EXPERIENCES THAT STAND OUT?

>>OH, BOY.

SO I WAS THERE THE FIRST TWO YEARS.

I WAS THERE BASICALLY JUNE, JUNE OF 2009 THROUGH THE END OF 2011.

AND SO ALMOST EVERYTHING WAS LEGISLATIVE, RIGHT?

IT WAS THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.

IT WAS THE REPEAL OF DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL, THE DREAM ACT, WHICH FAILED BY FIVE DEMOCRATIC VOTES AT THE TIME, ACTUALLY FROM GETTING PASSED.

SO THERE WERE A LOT OF VERY EMOTIONAL STORIES.

I THINK THAT'S THE BIGGEST THING I LEARNED WAS THE IDEA OF PATIENCE AND WHEN, YOU KNOW, PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY LEGISLATIVELY VERSUS THROUGH EXECUTIVE ACTION.

SO I REMEMBER, FOR INSTANCE, THE THE REPEAL OF DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL, THERE WERE A LOT OF ACTIVISTS IN THE MILITARY COMMUNITY, LGBT COMMUNITY, WHO UNDERSTANDABLY SAID THE PRESIDENT SHOULD JUST SIGN AN EXECUTIVE ORDER THAT GETS RID OF DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL.

AND THE PRESIDENT'S VIEW WAS, IF I DO THIS, THEN A FUTURE PRESIDENT CAN JUST AS EASILY REINSTATED WITH THE STROKE OF A PEN.

AND EVERYONE WAS SORT OF SAYING, ARE YOU CRAZY?

IN WHAT REALITY WOULD THERE EVER BE AN ATTACK ON OUR VETERANS, ON OUR SERVICE MEMBERS OR VETERANS OR THE LGBT COMMUNITY IF SOMETHING'S CONSIDERED DONE?

AND NOW LOOK AT IT NOW HOW FAR WE'VE REGRESSED, RIGHT?

WE HAVE BILLS THAT THAT ARE SOMEHOW - WE DON'T HAVE AN NANO OF SUPPORT THAT HELP OUR VETERANS OR THAT HELP KIDS WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH THEIR IDENTITY.

SO HINDSIGHT'S ALWAYS 20/20, BUT SEEING WHY AND HOW THE PRESIDENT GOT SOMETHING PASSED LEGISLATIVELY TOOK A YEAR AND A HALF, ALMOST TWO YEARS OF VERY PAINFUL NEGOTIATIONS AND GRANDSTANDING AND, YOU KNOW, GETTING FOLKS IN LINE FOR SOMEBODY WHO'S AN OUTSIDER TO POLITICS, WHO, BY THE WAY, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT SO YOUNG THAT I GREW UP WITH TWITTER IN MY HAND OR TIKTOK IN MY HEAD.

BUT I'M OLD ENOUGH THAT I'M LIKE, I STRADDLE THOSE WORLDS.

I REMEMBER WHAT ANALOG WAS LIKE.

I HAVE PATIENCE, BUT I ALSO UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE GENERATIONS OF PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY I WAS THE PRESIDENT'S YOUTH OUTREACH PERSON, RIGHT?

SO I WAS DEALING WITH A LOT OF YOUNGER FOLKS FOR WHOM CHANGE SHOULD BE A LIGHT SWITCH.

THEY HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION THEY'VE EVER WANTED AT THE PRESS OF A BUTTON.

SO TO EXPLAIN THAT THE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT OPERATE SLOWLY AND OPERATE SLOWLY ON PURPOSE.

>>SURE, OF COURSE.

>>IS A TRICKY THING.

SO YOU SEE ALL OF THESE ACCOMPLISHMENTS OR FAILURES, PLACES WHERE WE FELL SHORT, LIKE THE DREAM ACT AND THEN THINK ABOUT HOW DISCUSSIONS AROUND CHANGE AND CIVIC ENGAGEMENT WORK.

THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, I TELL THEM IN A LITTLE MORE DETAIL IN THE BOOK, BUT THEY WERE REALLY EYE OPENING FOR ME BECAUSE I NEVER I NEVER GREW UP WITH THAT.

>>WELL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW.

PEOPLE OUR AGE DIDN'T START WITH SOCIAL MEDIA AND ALL THAT.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM WORKING IN PUBLIC SERVICE ABOUT REACHING PEOPLE AND CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE THAT YOU DIDN'T NECESSARILY LEARN FROM ACTING WHEN YOU'RE ON TV AND IN MOVIES?

>>IT WAS TWO THINGS.

SO ONE, THIS IS THIS IS JUST, UM, I SPENT ABOUT TWO WEEKS BEFORE I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE GENERAL ELECTION ON A CAMPAIGN BUS WITH HOWARD DEAN, WHO WAS THEN THE HEAD OF THE OF THE DNC.

AND I REMEMBER DEAN AND I HAD A CONVERSATION.

HE SAID, WHAT WHAT CONSTITUTES A SUCCESSFUL TV SHOW OR FILM?

I SAID, WELL, I JUST HAD THIS MOVIE COME OUT.

YOU KNOW, WE WE TESTED IT A 94%, WHICH IS PRETTY GOOD.

THAT'S IT'S REALLY GOOD 94% OF THE TEST AUDIENCE SAID THAT THEY WOULD RECOMMEND IT TO FRIENDS.

HE SAID 94%?

I SAID, YEAH, WHY?

WHAT'S SUCCESS TO YOU?

HE'S LIKE 51%.

>>RIGHT, RIGHT.

>>ALL I NEED IS 51%.

AND THAT'S I THINK THE FIRST TIME THAT I REALIZED THE DIFFERENCE IN POLITICS IN TERMS OF ACTUALLY GETTING SOMETHING DONE IS THAT 51%.

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW IN THE IN THE OUTREACH OFFICE IN THE OBAMA WHITE HOUSE, AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF THE HATCH ACT AND A WHOLE NUMBER OF THINGS, THERE WAS NOT THAT DIRECT CORRELATION OF ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS THE BARE MINIMUM 51%.

IT WAS ALSO BASED ON ON ORGANIZING FOLKS GETTING SUPPORT BUILT FOR CERTAINLY LEGISLATIVE PRIORITIES BUT BUT OTHER, YOU KNOW, PRIORITIES THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN UNTIL THE SECOND TERM.

THINGS LIKE LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE OR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION, YOU KNOW, THINGS THAT ENDED UP BEING MAYBE EXECUTIVE ACTION INSTEAD OF LEGISLATIVE.

IT'S MEETING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.

THE ONE EXAMPLE I'LL GIVE YOU IS, FOR INSTANCE, I WAS ASKED TO PUT TOGETHER A SUMMIT ON YOUNG PEOPLE AND CLIMATE CHANGE SOLUTIONS.

AND INSTEAD OF INVITING 160 SEATS, I THINK INSTEAD OF JUST INVITING A WHOLE BUNCH OF LEFTIES WHO CARE ABOUT CLIMATE WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN WONDERFUL ON ITS OWN FOR A DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION.

>>FRIENDLY AUDIENCE.

>>RIGHT.

WE DECIDED TO SPLIT IT UP INTO THIRDS.

SO A THIRD WERE THESE FOLKS.

A THIRD WERE YOUNG, BUSINESS SAVVY TECH KIDS, BASICALLY, WHO HAVE THESE STARTUPS THAT WERE HELPING WITH CLIMATE CHANGE SOLUTIONS.

BUT REALLY THEY JUST WANTED TO MAKE MONEY.

WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEIR POLITICS THEY JUST SAID, YOU KNOW I'VE CREATED THIS DEVICE THAT WILL CHARGE YOUR IPHONE WITH THE KINETIC ENERGY YOU CREATE WHEN YOU WALK AROUND.

GREAT, WE WANT YOU AT THE TABLE THE OTHER THIRD THAT I THINK WAS THE MOST INTERESTING WAS YOUNG EVANGELICAL, CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS.

SO FOR THESE FOLKS, THEY WANTED TO BE AT THE TABLE FOR CLIMATE CHANGE CONVERSATIONS, NOT BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY BELIEVED IN THE SCIENCE BUT BECAUSE THEIR VIEW WAS GOD PUT US ON HIS GREEN EARTH TO TAKE CARE OF THE PLANET, PERIOD.

SO WHOEVER IS GOING TO PROPOSE LEGISLATION THAT WILL HELP ACHIEVE THAT GOAL, WE WANT TO BE THERE FOR THAT.

AND SO WE INVITED THEM AND, YOU KNOW, RARELY, I THINK IN A POLARIZED ENVIRONMENT DO PEOPLE THINK STRATEGICALLY ABOUT WHO NEEDS TO BE AT THE TABLE TO PUSH THINGS FORWARD.

AND ULTIMATELY, THERE WAS NOT THE TYPE OF COMPREHENSIVE CLIMATE CHANGE LEGISLATION THAT I THINK EVERYBODY HOPED FOR.

BUT THE IDEA THAT THESE FOLKS WALKED AWAY WITH A CERTAIN COALITION, UNDERSTANDING THAT IT'S NOT A ZERO SUM GAME THAT WE HAVE TO REACH OUT TO PEOPLE WHERE THEY'RE AT AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE FOLKS THAT THIRD, THEY PROBABLY HATED THE PRESIDENT AND MY GUTS AND THE ADMINISTRATION ON 98% OF THINGS, BUT THAT OTHER 2% WAS WORTH MEETING ON AND WORTH HAVING CIVIL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT AND COMING UP WITH SOLUTIONS TO ADDRESS.

>>WELL, YOU'RE IN THAT LIGHT.

YOU KNOW, NARRATIVES ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO POLITICS AND IDENTITY AND EVERYTHING.

AND YOU, YOUR FAMILY HAS THE ULTIMATE KIND OF AMERICAN STORY OF IMMIGRANT YOUR DAD ARRIVING WITH.

I FORGET HOW MANY, BUT.

YEAH.

>>YEAH.

>>AND, YOU KNOW, MAKING IT ALL RIGHT.

BUT NOW YOU'RE SEEING RHETORIC WHERE IMMIGRATION IS SUCH A WEDGE ISSUE FOR PEOPLE.

AND, YOU KNOW, OFTEN IT'S PEOPLE WHO A GENERATION OR TWO GENERATIONS AGO, THEIR FAMILY CAME HERE.

SO IT'S LIKE, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN MEAN TO YOU?

>>YEAH.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THE REASON THAT WHEN YOU ASKED ME IN THE BEGINNING ABOUT THE FAMILY HISTORY, THE REASON I MENTIONED THE IMMIGRATION CHANGES IN 1965 ARE, I THINK, NUMBER ONE, THIS IS A COMPONENT THAT'S OFTENTIMES LOST, RIGHT?

PEOPLE WILL LOOK AT ASIAN-AMERICAN IMMIGRANTS OF THAT PARTICULAR TIME PERIOD AND SAY WELL, IF THEY COULD DO IT, HOW COME THESE FOLKS FROM LATIN AMERICA CAN'T DO IT?

HOW COME THE BLACK COMMUNITY CAN'T DO IT?

HOW COME THIS PERSON CAN'T DO IT?

IT'S LIKE, FIRST OF ALL, THE "IT" THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO ASK IS, IS TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS, A CIRCUMSTANCE OF IMMIGRATION AND CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE OF - OF FORCED TRAFFICKING OF HUMANS, ENSLAVED HUMANS CAN NEVER BE COMPARED TO SOMEBODY WHO CAME HERE WITH $12 IN HIS POCKET AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK HARD, RIGHT?

SO THAT'S NUMBER ONE, IS THAT I THINK THE MYTH OF THE MODEL MINORITY EXISTS AND SHOULD BE DISPELLED THEN I THINK THE OTHER COMPONENT, SADLY, IS POLITICIANS ARE VERY SAVVY, LIKE YOU SAID, USING IMMIGRATION AS A WEDGE ISSUE, THE PERCEPTION BEING THAT WE SOMEHOW DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO MULTIPLE THINGS AT THE SAME TIME AND THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE, RIGHT?

YOU HEAR CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW WE SHOULD NEVER BE WE'RE GOING TO BUS OR FLY THESE MIGRANTS OVER TO ANOTHER STATE OR WE'RE GOING TO, YOU KNOW, HOW CAN WE HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY GIVE AID TO THIS COUNTRY?

LOOK AT ALL THESE AMERICANS WHO ARE SUFFERING AS IF WE DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO TACKLE ALL OF THOSE PROBLEMS AT THE SAME TIME, WE DO HAVE THE RESOURCES, WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE WILL.

AND SO I THINK IT'S SAD IF WE'RE SPENDING ALL OF OUR TIME DIVIDING EACH OTHER INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING WE HAVE THE RESOURCES.

AND BY THE WAY, IF YOU LOOK AT VARIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS, THE WAY, THEY'VE STREAMLINED DIFFERENT AID PROGRAMS, WILL SHOW YOU THAT GETTING RID OF THE WASTE IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS TO HELP ALL OF THE FOLKS ALL OF THE TIME.

AND SO I JUST WISH THAT THERE WOULD BE MORE SANE VOICES GETTING BACK TO THAT.

THAT CAN BE WAY MORE BORING THAN SAYING THAT PERSON IS THE REASON THAT YOU HAVE PROBLEMS IN YOUR LIFE.

BUT THAT'S THAT'S NOT TRUE, RIGHT?

THE PROBLEMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE CAN BE TACKLED COMPREHENSIVELY IF WE IF WE SORT OF AIM FOR THAT.

SO IT IS A WORRY OF MINE BECAUSE IT MAKES FOR GREAT STORIES.

IT MAKES FOR A GREAT YELLING AND SCREAMING.

YOU SELL SOME AD SPACE, MAKE PEOPLE HAPPY BUT IN TERMS OF THE REALITY, IT'S NEITHER OF THE POLICY REALITY NOR I THINK THE REALITY OF HOW MOST FOLKS FEEL ABOUT OUR OUR FAMILIES AND OUR COMMUNITIES WHEN WE GO TO BED AT NIGHT.

>>WELL, WHEN YOU'RE ANSWERING LIKE THAT, I MEAN, YOU AND YOU'VE BEEN AROUND POLITICS, THE QUESTION NATURALLY IS, ARE YOU GOING TO EVER GO BACK TO POLITICS IN YOUR OWN RIGHT?

>>IF THE HIDDEN QUESTION IS, WILL I EVER RUN FOR ANYTHING, I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE.

WELL, I JUST TOTALLY GOING TO BE VERY I'M NOT THE YELLER AND SCREAMER, RIGHT?

SO I STILL THINK I'M GOOD.

BUT YEAH, I WOULD LOVE TO BE A POLITICAL APPOINTEE AGAIN AT SOME POINT.

YOU KNOW, I'VE MADE NO SECRET OF THE FACT THAT ONE OF MY - MY - MY SORT OF DREAM JOB, WHETHER IT'S IN RETIREMENT OR A LITTLE SOONER, IS I LOVE THE IDEA OF CULTURAL DIPLOMACY.

ONE OF THE REASONS THAT I STUDIED PART OF IT IN GRAD SCHOOL IS BECAUSE I DO BELIEVE IN THIS PEOPLE TO PEOPLE THING.

SO WORKING AS AN AMBASSADOR TO ANOTHER COUNTRY ON BEHALF OF THE U.S. OR WORKING IN ANOTHER ADMINISTRATION, I'M FOCUSED ON ACTING AND ON THE BOOK RIGHT NOW.

BUT DEFINITELY HELPING FOLKS AT THE LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL IN NEW YORK AS WELL IN MY IN MY OFF TIME.

>>SO WE JUST WE JUST HAVE WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT.

SO I WONDER I WANT TO ASK, YOU KNOW, YOU'VE TAUGHT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.

YOU TALK TO A LOT OF GROUPS ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE, ASIAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE LESSONS YOU'RE TRYING TO TO EMPHASIZE?

>>OH, WOW.

WELL, YOU KNOW, IT DEPENDS.

THE I THINK THE IDEA THAT WE'RE DIVIDED ALONG ALL OF THESE LINES IS SOMETHING THAT IS A LITTLE BIT ARBITRARY AND A LITTLE BIT SORT OF CREATIVE, RIGHT?

THE THINGS THAT WILL MAKE YOU CLICK ON SOMETHING OR MAKE YOUR BLOOD BOIL, JUST QUESTION WHENEVER THAT HAPPENS.

AND SO I THINK THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT ARE THE TIES THAT WE HAVE, WHAT MAKES OUR OUR COUNTRY OR COMMUNITY STRONGER?

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, I MEAN, LOOK, THE REASON THAT I WROTE THIS BOOK IN A WAY THAT I HOPE YOU CAN READ AT THE BEACH OR AT THE POOL IS ULTIMATELY, HOW CAN WE LAUGH TOGETHER?

AND I THINK IF WE CAN CONTINUE TO LAUGH TOGETHER SITTING NEXT TO YOUR CRAZY UNCLE AT THANKSGIVING THOSE ARE THE THOSE ARE THE BIGGER LESSONS THAT I'VE CERTAINLY LEARNED FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE I'VE BEEN AROUND THEM THAT I WANTED TO SORT OF PASS ALONG THROUGH THE BOOK AND AUDIO BOOK AND THEN THE LECTURE THAT WE'RE DOING HERE AT UCF.

>>WELL, WE THANK YOU VERY MUCH, KAL PENN, FOR JOINING US TODAY.

IT'S A GREAT BOOK.

WE'LL MAKE SURE WE GET IT, SHOW IT TO THE AUDIENCE.

THANKS FOR JOING US.

>>THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT SUNDAY ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.