- [Announcer] This program was funded by the following: Laura and John Beckworth, BP Ame Joe Latimer and Joni Hartgraves, and also by... And by... A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

- I often think when America wants to go off on some sort of adventure in the Middle East or anywhere in the world, we are so ignorant of local cult you should take those things int Are you ready to face that?

You know, I don't think America is very well equipped to do that kind of thing and to survive in that kind of m (serious upbeat music) (serious upbeat music) (playful music) - Welcome to the LBJ Presidentia Library in Austin, Texas.

I'm Mark Updegrove.

As an author, journalist, television commentator, and CEO of the LBJ Foundation, I've had the privilege of talking to some of the biggest names and best minds of our day about our nation's ri and the pressing issues of our t Now we bring those conversations straight to you.

Tonight we continue our conversa with "New Yorker" staff writer and Pulitzer Prize-winning author of "The Human Scale," Lawrence Wright.

He shares his incisive views on the Middle East, a region marked by tribal conflicts and division as war between Israel and Hamas continues to rage.

Last time you were here, Larry, we talked about your wonderful new novel, "The Human Scale," but I want to go back to the reg There is so much happening in the Middle East, and I wanna get your take on oth of the challenges that we face in that part of the world.

There are certain dates which, as Franklin Roosevelt said about December 7th, will live in and since then we've had 9-11 and we had January 6th.

October 7th seems like one of th - Yeah.

- when Hamas attacked Israel in 2023.

What will October 7th mean to history, Larry?

- Well, it has reordered the Mid but in what fashion, we don't kn You know, I was, I was in Israel and West Bank in February, 2023.

And I, it was a odd experience.

I was in Hebron, which is where the novel is set, mainly in the West Bank.

And I was walking around the old city with a peace activist named Issa Amro.

And he was assaulted by this Israeli soldier right in front of my eyes.

He, this burly young man, you kn and he's a slight older fellow, but he picked him up by the neck and hurled him down on the groun Issa's head missing a curb by a fraction of an inch.

And then he kicked him so strong the soldier nearly fell down from the force of it, and he was pulled away by some other troops.

Issa had done nothing except be a Palestinian peace ac That was the, that was the cause that was the provocation that elicited that response.

And at the time, I had been obse among the Palestinian community, an outburst of a tremendous agit And, you know, I've been in and out of the region at times, and you can take the temperature almost as soon as you get off the airplane.

And it was, I thought this was Intifada weather, and I was gonna propose a "New Yorker" story about, you know, the forthcoming Intifa And I also observed, on the Isra this enormous complacency, in they would often talk about when the Palestinians get riled up, we have to mow the lawn.

And that was the, you know, the term that is used for a considerable amount of bom and destruction and mayhem.

Well, this, this was, you know, the reverse of that.

I had written a draft, I turned in a draft in August of '23 that ended with a war between Israel and in Gaza.

And then in October, October 7th came along and I realized I'd have to rewrite the novel, restructure it, and take that into account.

It was too big an incident, too I couldn't set it before and I couldn't set it after.

I just decided I would take it into account.

And I know that's gonna elicit some passionate feelings from people who feel like I shou have access to that date, because it's sacred in some way.

And I felt that way about 9-11 when I was writing "The Looming I had to be really careful because this is too meaningful to too many people.

But I just couldn't avoid doing that in this novel.

- Was October 7th inevitable?

- Violence was inevitable.

October 7th is much a part of, y I mentioned the agitation of the Palestinians and the complacency of the Israe They're equally responsible for what happened.

I mean, the Israelis were totally taken by surprise.

You know, there were military en very close to the border, but a lot of them were on, soldiers were on vacation.

There was, the Israelis had the They had captured the plan some about the breakout from Gaza and everything about it, including the, you know, those motor scooters that go in and, you know, the use of drones and everything, everything was in that plan.

And when it started happening, they still couldn't believe that it was happening.

And, you know, every mile or so there's an outpost with an automated machine gun.

There's, you know, operated by an all-female squadron in Tel Aviv, and they're just...

But almost immediately they were all taken out.

And all the communications and everything was knocked out, and Israel was totally unprepared for that.

And then there was, on the part of the Hamas, you know, they, yes, they wanted kidnappings, they wanted, but they also wanted to kill as many people as possible.

And mayhem, there was total disorder.

It was just a riot.

And so, you know, Hamas is not a sophisticated organization.

It's isolated, it's, you know, it's away from the flow of events in the rest of the world.

You know, it's a, it's a small organization.

And, you know, if you read the old Charter, it's kind of hysterical in terms of, you know, this, the United States is run by, by the Jews, you know, all the wars that were caused by the Jews and, and other things like the Optimi and, you know, stuff, (laughs) you know, that you think, I don't know where they're getting their information about the West, but the truth is, they're just locked up and aside from, they're not exposed to the way the world really works, because they're locked into thei I had the experience of going to talk to Hamas when I was in Gaza.

And it was, it was a strange experience for me.

It was arranged that I would speak to Khalil al-Hayya, who was about the only surviving top leader of Hamas.

And now he's involved in the peace negotiations.

And we met in a school, in a cla and there was a semicircle of ch with other Hamas leaders.

I felt like Oprah, you know, talking to the leader and, you know, having the Hamas or kind of like this.

And I had, I'd made a mistake the night before in terms of my dinner.

The, you know, they've had tunne where they brought cattle and stuff like that.

And then they, you know, the ocean was out there, but it was sort of green from th so I wasn't gonna order fish.

(Mark chuckles) And so I, I decided I'd have a steak and the waiter said, "Would you like that well done or very well done?"

And I didn't get the message, but by the next day, when I was sitting around talking to the leader of Hamas, I was really ill. And I realized as I was talking that I was gonna faint.

And, and I did.

(chuckles) I was, I was asking a question, I just went over and I was still conscious, sort of, and somewhere outta nowhere, they brought a mattress and I laid down on the mattress and continued my interview.

(Mark laughs) That was my experience with Hama And they were so caring, you kno it, it took me by surprise.

And you know, that's one of the lessons you learn as a reporter, is that people are more than one thing.

You know, to just demonize Hamas doesn't get you anywhere.

If you can appeal to the humanity of your opponent, you are likely to get further than just continually demonizing - Have we been too flexible with Have we been too soft on Israel, to whom we give tremendous aid and have throughout- - Yeah.

- the history of the country?

Are we too lenient as it relates to their policy in the region?

- I believe so.

I think that, I think to be a good friend to Israel, you would have to have a way of towards acceptance of the other in their society.

And, you know, the idea that there are two people who can't live with each other is anti-human.

You know, of course they can.

They choose not to.

And, but there's a price for that decision.

And, you know, this ongoing hostility, you know, what a friend of mine proposed that there would be, you know, a tax break for inter-marriage.

(chuckles) That's sort of a long-term solut but it's, it's actually, you kno there are other, like Belgium has a hard time with its ethnic disparities, but they don't murder each other You know, it's a struggle to sort out where I stand and where you stand.

That's the nature of democracy.

And you know, with Israel, you k it has declared itself a Jewish state, which leaves, you know, the more than a million Arab-Israelis in a odd spot.

And it's, it has never declared its border It doesn't have a constitution.

I think the world would rest a little easier If Israel decided this is what w But if you look at the maps that they have in Israel right n the maps show Israel going all the way to the Jordan River.

So the West Bank is, in the view of the cartographers, is already theirs, but it doesn't say where the people are And I'm worried about that.

I think another mass exodus of Palestinians, you know, the extremists say that, you know, they'll be persuaded or we'll buy them out or something like that, but in any case, they would drive them out.

That would be a catastrophe.

And, and not just for the region, but for the world.

- Larry, it's clear that Hamas is a proxy for Iran.

What role does Iran play in that - Well, it's changing right now.

You know, it's diminished from what it was last year, let's say, and I'm glad of that.

'Cause it's been a very provocative actor, you know, it has created the axis of resistance, as they call it, so that there are Iran-supported like Hezbollah in Lebanon, and of course, the Syrian regime, right, and then on top of that, the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

It's been a really bad actor.

I'm glad to see it's influence d but it's not gone away.

And, you know, it will try to reestablish itself, perhaps as a nuclear power, which will make things even more complicated.

I doubt that Israel will let it get that far.

And I'm not sure that, you know, America will either.

You know, it's odd too, because in some respects, if you just took a photograph of the population of Iran, it's one of the most pro-American countries in the Middle East, because of their regime, which t And so their hatred turns into respect for America because we hate it too.

It's, you know, Iran is one of those countries that has so much going for it, you know, well educated people, you know, great natural resources, a strategic location.

And, and yet it's a failure as a And, and it justifies its behavi because they say that we've created the failure.

Well, to me, one of the great, y tragedies in the region, a region noted for tragedy is what they did in Syria.

And, you know, by propping up this incredibly hostile, violent entity, the Assad regime we don't know how many people have been killed.

But in prisons alone, you know, tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people tortured to death.

And it, it's just grotesque.

I had a friend, I went to Syria, I think in 2006.

I was, I was curious about it because the Middle East is a valuable region, you know, and for a reporter, that's great You know, people like to talk.

And, but Syria, I've realized, it's so quiet.

And so why is that?

It's like the dog that didn't bark.

And so I proposed that I go to do a "New Yorker" story about Syrian movies because, you people judge America by our movi and I would judge Syria by its m and talk to its movie makers and And what I found was everybody I and in every movie I watched, people were beaten.

You know, they were beaten by their parents, by their teachers, by the cops, and it, it was just physical abu was a common denominator.

I remember I was having dinner with this TV director and his wife, and I was asking him about this, you know, and his wife suddenly said, "For me, it was an enlightenment And I said, "What do you mean yo You know, and she had been marri did your ex-husband beat you?

And she said, "No."

And then she took my little yellow legal tab and she wrote, "Raped by the police at the airport."

- Oh.

- And this was, I began to wonder, was it the people that had, you know, created this culture or was it the dictatorship, the tyranny, that created it?

There's a, we'll find out.

- Right.

- But, but you know, there was a woman, and maybe, and I'm not gonna try to reveal anything about her personally, but she was an Alawi which is the minority sect that the Assad regime represente and was the, was the affiliation because it was a splinter group of Shia Islam.

Anyway, she decided to run off and join the revolution.

And her father said, "If you don't come home, I'm gonna kill your mother."

And he did that.

And I thought, I often think when America wants to go off on some sort of adventure in the Middle East or anywhere in the world where we're so ignorant of local you should take those things int Are you ready to face that?

You know, I don't think America is very well equipped to do that kind of thing and to survive in that kind of m So I, I always take those stories as cautionary tales about how much we should be invo And the truth is, we are a very narcissistic culture.

And there's nothing wrong with t We're concerned with ourselves and our own creations, our own c But it, everybody knows more abo than we know about those other c So we play an odd role in the wo And, you know, it's a little bit like reflective glass.

You know, they can see us and we can't see them.

- You referred to Assad's fall i and it happened without Iran int Iran which had been the long term sponsor of Syria and the Assad regime, reflecting the weakness of Iran.

Why has Iran weakened in recent - Well, part of it has been sanc And, you know, the, the truth is tyrannical governments lead to failure eventually, somewhere along the line, because they, you know, if you, if you capture the spirit of a people, they can't express themselves productively.

And, you know, that's one of the reasons you find, you know, like in China, they try to let loose a little bit more freedom in order to create the kind of c that they need to be competitive But it's a dangerous proposition 'cause you, once you let people have a little more taste of freedom and opportunity, you know, you can see in the way they treat their tech entrepreneurs.

You know, they have a big succes and then it's followed by a kind of crackdown because they may be getting too much power.

Well, we're certainly facing that in our country.

But, but, you know, in a democracy, in a true democracy, you have to be willing to tolerate imbalances with the idea that freedom and the opportunity for people to succeed is more im We, we have to try to find ways to balance things without disturbing the energy of the people.

And that's what's happened in Ir And, of course, in Syria too.

I'll tell you one story about Syria that... One of the filmmakers that I met there was Orwa Nyrabia and he was a very entrepreneuria and he had created film festivals and stuff like that an about a year after I got back, I heard that he had been imprisoned by the Syrian regime.

And this was really upsetting because when you're in those prisons, you know, the likelihood is you're gonna be tortured.

And you know, and not many people survive it.

And, Orwa it was just a big bear, jovial, wonderful guy, really liked him, and what could And I got my friend, Alex Gibney who's a documentarian, and we worked together on a number of projects, he and I talked and came up with this campaign, which was we get filmmakers around the world to start a campaign.

And all it required was take you and say, you know, "Lawrence Wright, American filmmaker, screenwriter, free Orwa."

And so this went around the filmmaking community.

And about two weeks later, they let him out.

And the guard said to him, "How do you know Robert De Niro?"

(Mark and Lawrence laugh) So that was all it took.

And he said, "I don't."

It was susceptible to...

It's an example that I often lik what is powerful about America in the world is our example, our culture.

You know, it, it has downsides, but it, people want to experienc and the liberty that American culture displays.

One time when I was a young reporter, I went to Nicaragua, which was one of the most anti-American places I've been.

The Sandinistas were in control.

And I went to a baseball game where they love baseball, and all the comandantes were sitting in front of me, you know, and everybody seemed to be praying.

And so I had an escort that was taking me around, and I asked her if, you know, she wanted something to drink, so she said, "I'll have a Coke."

So I went up, Nicaragua was so p they couldn't afford paper cups so they poured in these little plastic baggies, and this, manipulating the liqui you know (chuckles), so anyway.

Despite their anti-Americanism, all they could talk about was the Baltimore Orioles.

The Baltimore Orioles had three Nicaraguans on the team at the time.

And Dennis Martinez was their ac And Earl Weaver, who was the legendary manager of the Orioles, decided, "Well, let's just go to Nicaragua and play an exhibition game."

He didn't ask permission, he just took the Orioles to Managua and they played an exhibition game, and it was all people could talk It was, "America noticed us."

And you know, also when you see somebody like Dennis Martinez succeeding in America, it reflects on your own culture.

So every country in the world has, in a way, two countries.

One is, like in Egypt, the Egyptians that live in Egypt, and then the Egyptians that live in Detroit.

And, you know, you look at your uncle and you think, "Our life could be like that if we had those kinds of freedom So it's that example that America represents, and that's the most precious thi that we have to offer the world, is that example.

And when we behave as poorly as we are now, it's, it's disappointing to the - Larry, thank you for being here for part two of this very illuminating conver - It's been a pleasure, Mark.

Th (serious upbeat music) (serious upbeat music) (serious upbeat music) - [Announcer] This program was funded by the following: Laura and John Beckworth, BP Ame Joe Latimer and Joni Hartgraves.

And also by... And by... A complete list of funders is available at APTonline.org and LiveFromLBJ.org.

(playful music) (upbeat music)