♪ MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING, AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO, WELCOME.

>>TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY DOUG WISE, THE FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE DEFENSE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

MR.

WISE IS ALSO A VETERAN OF THE CIA, AND AN ARMY OFFICER.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, DOUG.

>>WELL THANK YOU, DAVID, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

I ENJOY BEING HERE, IT'S AN HONOR AND A PLEASURE.

>>WE WANTED TO START BY TALKING A LITTLE ABOUT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE'S PERFORMANCE IN THE UKRAINIAN CRISIS.

YOU READ A LOT OF NEWS STORIES AND YOU HEAR HOW GREAT US INTELLIGENCE HAS BEEN, THEY'VE BEEN RIGHT ON THE MONEY, AND I CAN'T HELP BUT TO THINK, COMPARE THIS TO AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ WHEN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WAS BLAMED FOR HAVING A LOT OF WRONG ASSUMPTIONS, WHETHER IT WAS ON WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION OR OTHER THREATS.

>>WELL, I THINK WE SHOULD ALL, AS AMERICANS, BE PROUD OF HOW WELL THE WOMEN AND MEN OF THE US INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY DID, AS WELL AS OUR INTERNATIONAL PARTNERS, IT HELPED US IN PRODUCING HIGHLY RELEVANT, HIGH IMPACT, AND VERY ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AND THE UNPRECEDENTED USE OF THAT INTELLIGENCE BY THE PRESIDENT IN TERMS OF INFORMING THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ABOUT WHY HE'S MAKING CERTAIN DECISIONS, AND HELPING FOREIGN LEADERS USE THAT SAME INTELLIGENCE TO INFORM THEIR CITIZENS OF WHY THEY'RE MAKING CERTAIN DECISIONS.

SO I THINK THE TIMELINESS, THE ACCURACY, THE QUALITY OF THE INTELLIGENCE REFLECTS A LONG PERIOD OF LESSONS LEARNED BY INTELLIGENCE PROFESSIONALS.

I THINK IT ALSO REFLECTS A DEEP SENSE OF COLLABORATION AND COOPERATION ACROSS THE MANY AGENCIES, THE IC, AS WELL AS THE DISCIPLINES WITHIN EACH AGENCY, CIA ACROSS THE OPERATIONAL DIRECTORATE, ANALYTIC DIRECTORATE, AND THE SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY DIRECTORATE.

AND QUITE FRANKLY, I THINK IT WAS REALLY, REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE THAT THE PRESIDENT HAD SUCH TREMENDOUS TRUST AND CONFIDENCE IN THAT INFORMATION THAT HE WAS WILLING TO EXPOSE IT, NOT ONLY TO OUR ALLIES, BUT HE WAS ALSO WILLING TO EXPOSE IT THE VLADIMIR PUTIN, IN HOPES THAT PUTIN WOULD IN FACT GIVE PAUSE AND PERHAPS MAKE A CHANGE FROM HIS INTENT TO INVADE THE NATION OF UKRAINE.

SO JUST A TREMENDOUSLY GOOD JOB DONE, WELL DONE, YEARS OF PREPARATION FOR THAT, TALENT IN THE WORKFORCE, AND A REALLY GOOD SENSE OF COOPERATION AND COLLABORATION.

AND I THINK IT'S A REFLECTION ALSO OF THE COMPOSITION OF THE WORKFORCE, I THINK IT'S THE MULTICULTURAL VERY EXPERIENCED WORKFORCE ACROSS THE IC.

SO BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, THOUGH, ON THE CONTRAST TO THAT AND THE RUN UP TO IRAQ, WHAT YOU FOUND IN THE RUN UP TO THE UKRAINE WAR IS YOU FOUND NO POLITICAL MEDDLING, AND YOU FOUND NO POLITICAL INFLUENCE IN THE COLLECTION OF INTELLIGENCE, WHERE IN IRAQ YOU HAD THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION HAD ALREADY A DECISION TO INVADE, AND THEN WAS PUTTING PRESSURE ON THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY TO ACTUALLY PRODUCE INTELLIGENCE THAT CONFORMED WITH THE PRE-MADE DECISION SO THAT SHE DIDN'T HAVE A CONFLICT OF INTELLIGENCE CONTRAVENING POLITICAL DECISIONS.

AND SO THE IRAQ WAR IS A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THE HAZARDS AND THE RISKS OF POLITICIZATION OF INTELLIGENCE, WHEREAS IN THE UKRAINE SITUATION I THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST LET THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY DO WHAT WE PAY THEM TO DO, WHICH IS PRODUCE WORLD CLASS, ACCURATE, TIMELY, AND USEFUL INTELLIGENCE.

AND SO A TOTAL STUDY IN CONTRAST, AND I'M VERY IMPRESSED AND VERY PROUD OF MY COLLEAGUES WHO CONTINUE TO SERVE THE NATION SO WELL.

>>YOU SPOKE ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF EXPOSURE, AND WITH THE IMPORTANCE OF SOCIAL MEDIA WHEN IT COMES TO COMMUNICATION, HOW DO YOU SEE THE ROLE OF THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES WHEN IT COMES TO SEEING WHAT'S COMING OUT OF RUSSIA RIGHT NOW, FOR EXAMPLE, INFORMATION WISE?

>>YEAH, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE DEAL WITH IN THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, IN THE CLASSIFIED DOMAIN, PARTICULARLY IN THE COLLECTION OF INTELLIGENCE THROUGH VERY SENSITIVE, VERY PERISHABLE AND CLASSIFIED MEANS, IS QUITE FRANKLY, THE MORE SENSITIVE IT IS ALMOST ASSUREDLY THE NARROWER IS THE SCOPE OF THE INFORMATION, WHEREAS WE HAVE NOW LEARNED, QUITE FRANKLY, AND IT'S BEEN A DIFFICULT TRANSFORMATION, I THINK, CULTURALLY, TO ACCEPT THE VALUE OF NON-CLASSIFIED INFORMATION, WHICH IS THE BULK OF THE INFORMATION THAT'S PLAYING OUT IN THE UKRAINE CRISIS.

AND SO YOU COULD SEE WHERE TREMENDOUS, HOW ADROIT THE UKRAINIANS ARE IN MANIPULATING THE INFORMATION, AND THEY'RE GOING AGAINST THE RUSSIANS WHO ARE WORLD CLASS IN INFORMATION WARFARE.

THE UKRAINIANS ARE JUST TRUMPING THEM AT EVERY STEP IN THE INFORMATION WAR.

>>BUT IN THE BUSINESS OF COLLECTING INTELLIGENCE, THE AMOUNT OF INFORMATION THAT'S AVAILABLE THAT TURNS OUT TO BE PREEMINENTLY USEFUL IS PREDOMINANTLY NON-CLASSIFIED INFORMATION.

IT'S ALL OUT OF SOCIAL MEDIA, IT'S OUT OF NON-SOCIAL, BUT MEDIA MEDIA, AND IT'S ALL IN THE PRINT, AND IT'S ALL ONLINE, IT'S ON TELEVISION, IT'S ALL IN THE SPOKEN WORD, THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATIONS AND CONVERSATIONS AND TEXT MESSAGES ACROSS THE BOARD.

SO THE TREMENDOUS VOLUME OF DATA THAT IS AVAILABLE TO THE UNITED STATES INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY IS EXTRAORDINARY.

IT'S ALSO AN EXTRAORDINARY AND DAUNTING CHALLENGE TO PROCESS AND TO WINNOW THAT DOWN, TO HOMOGENIZE, PASTEURIZE, ADD VALUE TO IT AND PACKAGE IT IN A WAY THAT SOMEBODY LIKE YOURSELF, AS A SENIOR OFFICIAL, COULD MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION.

SO GREAT WORK ON THE PART OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND THIS IS A UNIQUE SITUATION, I THINK, WHERE YOU FIND THAT THIS IS AN INTERNET WAR, AND I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT HACKING.

THIS IS A WAR THAT'S PLAYING OUT ON THE INTERNET, AND IT SHOWS THE POWER, AND IT SHOWS THE STRENGTHS AND THE WEAKNESSES OF THAT AS WELL.

I THINK IT'S FASCINATING.

>>YOU'VE WORKED AS A PROFESSIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL FOR ALMOST 50 YEARS, SO YOU'VE SEEN A LOT OF CHANGE, YOU'RE TALKING NOW ABOUT A LOT OF THIS BEING ONLINE AND YOU'RE FOLLOWING, ALL THE MATERIAL YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER CHANGES YOU'VE SEEN OVER TIME, AND HOW HAVE THEY BEEN SHAPED BY THE THREATS THAT PRESENTED THEMSELVES AT DIFFERENT POINTS?

>>WELL, I THINK THE CHANGES IN CIA I THINK ARE, AND I WILL JUST LIMIT THIS TO CIA, BUT IT'S ALSO EXPANDABLE TO THE US INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY AS WELL.

I THINK FROM THE TIME I ENTERED CIA, WHICH WAS IN THE LATE 1980S, UNTIL NOW, I THINK ARE TWO MAJOR THINGS THAT HAVE DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED, OR THAT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, AND CIA IN PARTICULAR, HAS DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED.

ONE OF THEM IS THE SENSE AND THE SPIRIT AND THE PRACTICE OF COLLABORATION AND COOPERATION.

SO IN PRE-9/11, WHAT YOU HAD WERE INDIVIDUAL FIEFDOMS, YOU AND I CALL THEM AGENCIES AND DEPARTMENTS, OF THE US INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, WHO WERE IN THEIR OWN ISOLATED INFORMATION AND OPERATIONS ECOSYSTEM, AND THE TRIBAL CULTURE, AND THERE WERE IN SOME CASES IMPERMEABLE BOUNDARIES THAT WERE INTENTIONALLY CREATED THROUGH COMPARTMENTATION AND DEALING WITH SENSITIVE INFORMATION.

ANOTHER REASON WHY OPEN SOURCE INFORMATION IS SO VALUABLE, BECAUSE YOU CAN ACTUALLY TRANSACT WITH IT.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT COMPARTMENTATION, NEED TO KNOW, WAS DOMINANT, AND SO WE SET UP THE STRUCTURES, WE SET UP THE CULTURE, TO KEEP OUR INFORMATION OUR INFORMATION, AND THERE WAS VERY LITTLE NEED TO SHARE.

AND THEN 9/11 HAPPENED AND 3,200 AMERICANS WERE KILLED ON THAT FATEFUL DAY, AND THEN IN THE AFTERMATH OF THAT WE DISCOVERED THAT THERE WAS INFORMATION AVAILABLE.

WHETHER WE COULD HAVE TAKEN THAT INFORMATION, COMBINED IT ACROSS THE AGENCIES AND DEPARTMENTS TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE ACTIONS TO PREEMPT THE ATTACK WE'LL NEVER KNOW, AND I THINK THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT CALLS THAT OUT AND SAYS THE LACK OF SHARING, THE LACK OF COOPERATION, THE LACK OF COLLABORATION WAS AN EXISTENTIAL IMPACT TO THE EXISTENCE OF THE 9/11 ATTACK.

AND AGAIN, THEY ALSO CAVEAT THAT BY SAYING NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW WHETHER WE WERE ABLE TO PREEMPT IT.

SO IN THE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, NOT ONLY THE STRUCTURES, OF COURSE WE CREATED THE DNI RIGHT, THE STRUCTURES OF THE US INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, THE PROCESS, THE CULTURES, ALL DRAMATICALLY TRANSFORMED SO THAT WE ALL FELT MORE COMFORTABLE, AND WE FELT AN OBLIGATION TO SHARE APPROPRIATELY, AND TO USE INFORMATION TO ENABLE OUR COLLEAGUES SUCCESS, WHETHER IT WAS INTERNAL TO CIA, FOR ME AS A DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS OFFICER, TO ENABLE THE SUCCESS OF OUR ANALYTIC COLLEAGUES, OR VICE VERSA.

AND SO WE MADE A DRAMATIC CHANGE.

SO FROM THE LATE 1980S TO 2022, IT IS A WAY DIFFERENT STRUCTURE, IT'S A WAY DIFFERENT CULTURE, AND IT'S A WAY DIFFERENT WAY OF DOING THE INTELLIGENCE BUSINESS, AND I THINK THAT, IN A GREAT MEASURE, WAS A WAY TO ANSWER YOUR FIRST QUESTION, WHICH WAS WHAT ABOUT THAT INTELLIGENCE THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN USED IN THE RUN UP TO THE INVASION?

THE SECOND BIGGEST THING WAS BACK IN THE LATE 1980S, IF I WOULD'VE WALKED INTO A LARGE MEETING ROOM, I WOULD'VE SEEN ALL WHITE MALES.

THERE WOULD'VE BEEN VERY FEW FEMALES IN POSITIONS OF RESPONSIBILITY AND AUTHORITY, AND MOST OF THEM WOULD'VE BEEN IN ADMINISTRATIVE JOBS, AND THERE WOULD BE ALMOST NO OFFICERS OF COLOR.

AND SO THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY RECOGNIZED, WE DIDN'T UNDERSTAND IT THEN BECAUSE THE SYSTEM WORKED, WE WERE JUST GOING AGAINST THE RUSSIANS, AND WE REALLY DIDN'T NEED, I GUESS, A MULTICULTURAL WORKFORCE, AND A BROAD PERSPECTIVE, AND DIFFERENT LENSES TO VIEW THE EXISTENTIAL THREAT POSED BY THE SOVIET UNION.

SO I SUPPOSED THE MONOCULTURALISM INSIDE THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE WORKED FOR THE TARGET AND THE ENVIRONMENT AT THAT TIME.

BUT THE WORLD NOW TODAY IS INTERCONNECTED VERY COMPLEX, AND WHAT YOU HAVE ARE COMPLEX EXISTENTIAL THREATS WHICH REQUIRE COMPLEX SOLUTIONS AND MITIGATION TO THOSE THREATS, AND NO ONE AGENCY CAN PROVIDE THE SOLUTION.

YOU GOT TO WORK TOGETHER, AND YOU GOT TO HAVE A GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE.

AND SO HAVING A MULTICULTURAL WORKFORCE, OFFICERS WHO HAVE LIVED IN FOREIGN ENVIRONMENTS, THAT ARE MULTILINGUAL, THAT CAN HELP YOU VIEW AN ISSUE AND HELP YOU DEVELOP SOLUTIONS, FROM A WHOLE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE THAN AN OLD TIME MAINSTREAM WAY OF DOING BUSINESS.

BECAUSE IN THE END YOU ARE TRYING TO CREATE SOLUTIONS THAT HAVE TO HAVE FOREIGN CULTURES AND FOREIGN HISTORY AND FOREIGN POLITICS BAKED INTO THOSE SOLUTIONS, OR THEY WON'T HAVE THE EFFECT THAT YOU WANT TO HAVE.

AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WORKFORCE THAT HAS BEEN EXPOSED, THAT HAS DEEP EXPERTISE LINGUISTICALLY, HISTORICALLY, EDUCATIONALLY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET A SOLUTION THAT'S GOING TO BE YOU VERY HELPFUL.

SO IF YOU NOTICE, BOTH OF THOSE THINGS WORK IN TANDEM, BECAUSE THAT TRANSFORMATION TO COLLABORATION, TO COOPERATION, THAT INCREASES YOUR PERSPECTIVE, AND IT INCREASES THE LIKELIHOOD THAT I'M GOING TO FEEL COMFORTABLE OFFERING MY PERSPECTIVE ON A GIVEN ISSUE.

AND SO I THINK BOTH OF THEM HAPPENING, ARGUABLY SLOWLY TO THOSE THAT WERE WANTING A FASTER TRANSFORMATION, BUT I THINK ARGUABLY WE'RE IN A GOOD PLACE BY HAVING GONE THROUGH THOSE TWO KINDS OF TRANSFORMATION, I THINK.

SO IT'S A TOTALLY DIFFERENT INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY THAN THE ONE I ENTERED IN IN 1987.

>>INTERESTING.

>>YOU MENTIONED THE WORD TRANSFORMATION A LOT, WHICH LEADS ME TO, DO YOU THINK THAT THERE'S A CORRELATION BETWEEN WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH CRYPTOCURRENCY AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IN RUSSIA, UKRAINE, THAT SITUATION?

>>WELL, I THINK I READ, I SAW IN THE NEWS MEDIA TODAY, THAT BECAUSE OF THE FINANCIAL STRESS AND THE FINANCIAL LIMITATIONS, BECAUSE OF THE SWIFT RELATED DECISIONS AND SANCTIONS, THAT TRANSACTING IN TRADITIONAL CURRENCY, WHETHER IT'S ELECTRONIC OR PHYSICAL, HAS BECOME MUCH MORE DIFFICULT.

AND SO CRYPTOCURRENCY, ALBEIT BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN OBSERVABLE LEDGER, THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE OWNER OF THE ACTUAL TRANSACTION CAN BE EASILY CONCEALED.

AND SO IT'S NO SURPRISE TO ME THAT THE RUSSIANS, BEING ADAPTABLE IN VERY MALEVOLENT AND MALICIOUS WAYS, WOULD, NO SURPRISE TO ME, I MEAN, TERRORISTS HAD ADAPTED AND ADOPTED THAT CURRENCY, NARCO-TRAFFICKERS HAD DONE THAT, ORGANIZED CRIME HAD DONE THAT, AND SO NO SURPRISE THAT THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION WOULDN'T HAVE USED THAT AS AN ADAPTATION, A TOOL TO THE IMPOSITION OF SANCTIONS AND FINANCIAL STRESS, NO SURPRISE TO ME.

>>SO I WANT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING SPECIFIC AGAIN THAT'S IN THE NEWS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE CONFLICT, AND THAT'S, THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF SPECULATION ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN'S PSYCHE AT THIS POINT.

AS YOU KNOW IT'S ALWAYS BEEN IMPORTANT FOR, ESPECIALLY FOR SOME AMERICAN LEADERS, YOU READ ABOUT CAMP DAVID, FOR EXAMPLE, AND PRESIDENT CARTER STUDIED THE PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILE THAT THE CIA HAD COMPILED ABOUT SADAT AND BEGIN, AND SOME OF THE OTHER LEADERS IN THE REGION, AND THAT WAS VERY IMPORTANT TO HOW YOU DEALT WITH THEM.

YOU LOOK AT VLADIMIR PUTIN, WHO WAS A FORMER KGB AGENT BEFORE HE BECAME MAYOR OF ST. PETERSBURG AND PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WHAT'S HE THINKING NOW?

SO I WANTED TO ASK YOU, THAT'S A BIT OF OLD FASHIONED INTELLIGENCE IS GETTING THE PSYCHE OF A WORLD LEADER, ESPECIALLY ONE THAT'S POTENTIALLY MALEVOLENT LIKE PUTIN, HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT TODAY?

>>WELL, I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW PUTIN IS GOING TO MAKE A DECISION.

AND ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH US IN TRYING TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION IS THAT OUR DEFAULT POSITION IS TO VIEW PUTIN, HIS BEHAVIOR, THE INFORMATION THAT HE WOULD SEEM TO BE VALUABLE, AND THE CULTURE AND BACKGROUND AND HOW HE MAKES HIS RISK VERSUS GAIN DECISIONS WE LOOK AT THAT THROUGH AN AMERICAN LENS.

AND WE TRY TO, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT CONSCIOUS, WE END UP PROJECTING OUR OWN WAYS OF THINKING AND WAYS OF DOING BUSINESS, OR SHED OUR OWN CORE VALUES, WE PROJECT THAT, PARTICULARLY ONTO VLADIMIR PUTIN.

AND SO IF WE WERE VLADIMIR PUTIN, FACED WITH THE ENVIRONMENT THAT HE WAS FACING PRE-INVASION WE WOULD'VE SAID, AS AMERICANS, WE WOULD'VE SAID, NO MATTER HOW IMPORTANT IT IS, NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF A DESIRE I PERSONALLY WANT TO INVADE UKRAINE, IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO BE WORTH IT, IT'S GOING TO BE TOO RISKY.

THE SECOND, THIRD ORDER AFFECTS THE GLOBAL IMPACTS, MY ECONOMY'S GOING TO SUFFER, MY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SUFFER, AND SO THAT'S THE WAY WE WOULD THINK.

AND IT HAPPENS ALL TIME, WE VIEW YOU, I'M VIEWING YOU THROUGH MY EYES, AND I'M JUDGING YOU THROUGH MY FRAME OF REFERENCE, THROUGH MY EXPERIENCE, THROUGH MY CULTURE, MY ETHNICITY, ALL OF THAT, I'M VIEWING YOUR BEHAVIOR AND I'M MAKING A JUDGMENT.

AND THAT'S WHAT WE DO WITH PUTIN, AND I THINK WE TRY TO DEFAULT TO THE MOST HOPEFUL ASSESSMENT OF HIM AND SAY, THE COST IS GOING TO BE EXTRAORDINARY, EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE DONE POST-INVASION.

COULD HAVE BEEN ANTICIPATED PRE-INVASION, AND WAS PERFECTLY AVAILABLE TO PUTIN.

ALL OF WHAT WE'VE DONE SO FAR WAS PERFECTLY AVAILABLE TO PUTIN TO USE IN HIS RISK VERSUS GAIN DECISION MAKING, AND WE WOULD'VE SAID, MAYBE THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO ACCOMPLISH THIS OBJECTIVE, AND MAYBE WE'LL JUST WAIT AND DO THIS SOME OTHER TIME.

I'VE GOT ASYMMETRIC TOOLS, I GOT DIPLOMATIC TOOLS, ON WESTERN EUROPE I GOT ECONOMIC TOOLS, MAYBE NOT ON AMERICA.

AND SO WE PRESUME THAT PUTIN WOULD IN FACT BE RATIONAL AND REASONABLE FROM THE US PERSPECTIVE.

HE'S BEING PERFECTLY RATIONAL AND REASONABLE FROM A RUSSIAN PERSPECTIVE, AND WE LOST THAT, WE WEREN'T ABLE TO SEE THAT.

OUR OWN NATIONAL BIAS AND OUR OWN CULTURE OF BIAS, I THINK, BLINDED US TO THAT, AND WE'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES.

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THE UKRAINIANS WE'RE MORE BIASED BECAUSE THE UKRAINIANS ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT THEIR BROTHERS ACROSS THE BORDER WOULD NEVER RESORT TO THE BEHAVIOR WE'RE SEEING.

EVEN THE UKRAINIANS WERE SHOCKED AND SURPRISED THAT THEIR BROTHERS WHO WERE WILLING TO BEHAVE IN THIS WAY.

AND I FOUND IT TO BE INTERESTING, I DID A LOT OF TIME IN THE BALKANS, AND I WAS DEALING WITH THE GENOCIDAL MESS THAT CAME OUT OF THE BALKANS.

AND SO IT WAS THE SAME THING, THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN, FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS YOUR VILLAGE WAS PERFECTLY FINE, MULTICULTURAL, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN ONE DAY YOUR NEIGHBOR WAS SLAUGHTERING YOUR NEIGHBORS, AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WAS THERE A PSYCHOPATHIC ELEMENT TO THAT?

WAS THERE COLLECTIVE MENTAL ILLNESS?

WHAT WAS THE PSYCHOPATHY THAT WAS UNDERPINNING ALL THAT?

AND IT JUST TURNS OUT TO BE A MYSTERY BECAUSE I LOOK AT MY NEIGHBORS AND SAY, OH, MY NEIGHBOR'S GOING TO ACT JUST LIKE ME.

AND YOU CAN EITHER LOOK AND SAY, HE'S GOING TO BE JUST AS COMPASSIONATE AS ME, OR YOU CAN BE JUST AS VIOLENT AS I INTEND TO BE.

AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, AND NOBODY SHOULD HAVE BEEN SHOCKED.

2017 PUTIN SAID, UKRAINIAN ISN'T, ESSENTIALLY MY WORDS, AN UNAUTHORIZED COUNTRY THAT WAS ORIGINALLY PART OF RUSSIA, AND ALL I'M DOING IS BRINGING IT BACK AS PART OF MY LONG TERM PLAN TO RECREATE IMPERIAL RUSSIA.

AND SO I AM DOING THIS FOR UKRAINE, AND WE JUST CAN'T SEE THAT, WE'RE SAYING, YOU'RE DOING IT TO UKRAINE, NOT FOR UKRAINE.

AND WE AS AMERICANS FIND THAT DIFFICULT BECAUSE WE GENERALLY TRY NOT TO DO THINGS TO OUR FOREIGN PARTNERS, UNLESS THEY SO RICHLY DESERVE IT, BUT WE TRY TO DO THINGS FOR, I THINK THAT'S VERY AMERICAN.

PUTIN IS NOT.

>>HOW DO WE INCREASE OUR LEVEL OF BEING PREPARED IN THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY?

DO YOU SEE AN INCREASE IN HIRING PEOPLE WITH MORE RUSSIAN EXPERTISE, LANGUAGE SKILLS, PSYCHOLOGY, TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S THINKING OR WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT?

>>YEAH, I THINK THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION BECAUSE THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, LIKE THE MILITARY, THE OLD APHORISM IT SAYS, YEAH, THE MILITARY'S ALWAYS PREPARING FOR THE LAST WAR AND NOT THE FUTURE WAR.

AND THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY SUFFERS A BIT WITH THAT TOO, I MEAN, IT WASN'T SO RECENTLY THAT WE HAD A MASSIVE INVESTMENT ACROSS THE COMMUNITY IN COUNTER-TERRORISM.

WHY?

BECAUSE RUSSIA WASN'T EXACTLY A MEDDLESOME RISKY STATE, AND CHINA WAS MOUNTING THE LARGEST ESPIONAGE OPERATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE HUMAN RACE DIRECTED AGAINST US.

BUT THE FACT THAT THE MATTER IS THAT IT WAS TERRORISM, BECAUSE IT WAS VERY EMOTIONAL, VERY VISCERAL, ON TV AMERICANS DIED, ON THE HOMELAND, ALL THAT.

AND SO WE MADE ALL THE INVESTMENT IN TRYING TO MITIGATE THAT THREAT, AND THEN WE HAD GREAT POWERS RESURGENCE, EMERGENCE I GUESS A BETTER WORD, WE HAD CHINA COMING VERY FAST AND IN LARGE SCALE ON THE WORLD STAGE.

RUSSIA WAS SITTING IN ITS OWN LITTLE POLITICAL NATIONAL ECOSYSTEM, AND SO NEITHER OF THOSE, IN THE BEGINNING, WE'RE COMPARED TO THE THREAT POSED BY TERRORISM, AND SO WE BEGIN TO ADAPT.

NOW WE'RE DEALING WITH A RUSSIAN ISSUE, BUT I THINK WE'RE ALSO, WHAT WE'RE LEARNING OUT OF THIS IS WE'RE NOW SEEING HOW MUCH MORE COMPLICATED, MUCH MORE STRESSED THE REST OF THE WORLD WAS.

EVERYTHING WAS REALLY NICE, IT WAS WORKING WELL, AND ALL OF OUR PARTNERS AND ALL OF OUR ALLIES, SURE WE DISAGREED ON DIFFERENT ISSUES, AND THERE'S ALWAYS NATIONAL INTERESTS INVOLVED THAT TRUMP MULTILATERAL, AND MAYBE EVEN TREATY ISSUES.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT NOW WE FIND THAT THE WORLD'S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED, AND WE NEED A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, WITH DIFFERENT BACKGROUNDS AND DIFFERENT HISTORIES AND DIFFERENT SKILLS, WHO BRING THEIR OWN UNIQUE AND DIFFERENT ASPECTS TO HELPING US DEVELOP THE SOLUTIONS, AND HELPING US CHARACTERIZE WHAT WE'RE ACTUALLY SEEING SO WE DON'T GO THROUGH WHAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS, I'M OVERUSING THE WORD CULTURE HERE IN THIS DISCUSSION, BUT OUR CULTURAL BLINDNESS.

WE GET THE AMERICAN BLINDERS OFF AND PUT OUR GLOBAL BLINDERS ON, OUR GLOBAL GLASSES ON SO WE CAN SEE WITH A LITTLE MORE CLARITY, I THINK.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT.

BUT ANYWAY, THE WORKFORCE IS TRANSFORMING IN WAYS THAT I ALREADY DESCRIBED, BUT I AM CONFIDENT THAT THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WILL BE AVARICIOUS AND EXTREMELY HUNGRY FOR OFFICERS THAT HAVE EASTERN EUROPEAN BACKGROUNDS, EASTERN EUROPEAN EXPERTISE, AND POLITICAL SCIENCE, TO HELP US DEVELOP INTELLIGENCE THAT CAN INFORM POLICY.

>>YOU'RE GIVING ME ENOUGH INFORMATION TO ASK MY NEXT QUESTION IS YOU'RE VISITING CENTRAL FLORIDA TODAY AND TALKING TO STUDENTS, SO TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT MISSION THAT YOU HAVE NOW.

>>WELL, I THINK IT'S, ONE, I THINK THE UNIVERSITY OF CENTRAL FLORIDA HAS AN INCREDIBLE PROGRAM IN THE IC CAE PROGRAM, AND THE STUDENTS TODAY, AND YESTERDAY, QUITE FRANKLY, ARE SWITCHED ON, ENGAGED, SEEMED TO BE INSPIRED, VERY EAGER TO LEARN.

AND SO MY ROLE HERE IS PURELY TO BRING A PERSONAL FACE TO THE BUSINESS OF INTELLIGENCE, EVEN IF THE STUDENTS WOULD LOOK AT ME AND GO, IT'S AN OLD FACE.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT MY JOB IS NO LONGER TO RECRUIT SPIES AND GENERATE INTELLIGENCE, MY JOB IS, AS BEST I CAN, IS TO BE ABLE TO HELP PROGRAMS LIKE YOU HAVE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CENTRAL FLORIDA TO INSPIRE THE NEXT GENERATION OF ME.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO LOOK LIKE ME, THEY DON'T HAVE TO SPEAK LIKE ME, THEY DON'T HAVE TO COME FROM MY BACKGROUND, BUT THE REALITY IS MY JOB NOW IS TO SERVE AS AN EXAMPLE, TO CHALLENGE, TO GET THEM EXCITED, TO HELP GUIDE AND MENTOR AND COACH.

AND THERE'S A GREAT PROGRAM, WORLD CLASS FACULTY HERE, THAT'S DOING THAT, ALL OF THESE FACULTY MEMBERS HAVE BEEN JUST REALLY WELCOMING TO ME PERSONALLY, AND THEY REALLY CARE ABOUT THE STUDENTS.

AND SO MY PASSION TO TRY TO HELP THE STUDENTS, I DO THE SAME THING FOR THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW MEXICO, WHERE I LIVE, BUT MY PASSION IS REALLY THEIR PASSION.

SO THE FACULTY IS REALLY WORLD CLASS AND REALLY CARES ABOUT THE SAME THING I DO, WHICH IS PREPARING THESE STUDENTS, EXPOSING THEM TO OPPORTUNITIES, SEEING AND HELPING TO GUIDE THEM INTO A PATH THAT THEY FIND THAT THEY HAVE PASSION IN, AND WE HOPE THAT'S THE NATIONAL SECURITY PASSION.

>>DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION ON PUTTING ON OUR GLOBAL GLASSES AND ANALYZING COUNTRIES THAT ARE SURROUNDING, FOR EXAMPLE, THE STATE OF FLORIDA, THAT MAY BE PARTNERS OR FRIENDS OR ALLIES OF RUSSIA AT THIS TIME?

>>ARE YOU ASKING WHETHER I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THAT?

>>WHETHER YOU'RE CONCERNED, AND WHAT YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS FROM AN INTELLIGENCE PERSPECTIVE.

YOU TALKED ABOUT GLOBAL GLASSES, SO WE'RE IN FLORIDA, AND I WANTED TO KNOW YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON OUR SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

>>WELL, I THINK THE OBVIOUS SURROUNDING COUNTRIES TO THE SOUTHERN PART OF AMERICA IS CLEARLY CUBA AND MEXICO, AND I WOULD ARGUE CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA.

AND I THINK THROUGH HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT IN CENTRAL AND SOUTH AMERICA, I THINK THERE'S BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF EXPLOITATION, COLONIALISM.

AND I THINK EVEN THOUGH ONE WOULD ARGUE THAT THAT WAS LONG IN THE PAST, I THINK GENERATIONS OF DEVELOPMENT THROUGH CENTRAL AMERICAN AND SOUTH AMERICAN FAMILIES, I THINK AMERICA HAS TO DO SOME REPAIR WORK, I THINK, DOWN WITH OUR SOUTHERN FRIENDS.

AND SO BEING ABLE TO DO THAT, I THINK, IS VERY IMPORTANT.

>>AND THIS UNIVERSITY, I SUSPECT, PROBABLY HAS A HEALTHY POPULATION OF FOREIGN STUDENTS, WHICH I PRESUME THAT SOME PEOPLE OBJECT TO, I THINK IT'S A TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY TO HELP THEM SEE US FROM THE INSIDE, TO HELP DISPEL THEIR OWN MYTHOLOGY AND THEIR OWN BIASES, TO TEST THOSE BIASES, I THINK THAT'S ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT, AND THE WAYS YOU'RE GOING TO DO THAT IS THE SAME WAY THEY ACQUIRED THOSE BIASES, THROUGH EXPERIENCE AND LEARNING, AND HAVE THEM LEARNING NEW THINGS, I THINK, IS VERY IMPORTANT.

AND I THINK WHETHER THEY'RE CUBAN AMERICANS, WHETHER THEY'RE REAL CUBANS, WHETHER THEY'RE MEXICAN AMERICANS, WHETHER THEY'RE MEXICANS, WHETHER THEY'RE GUATEMALANS, HONDURANS, BRAZILIANS, VENEZUELANS, I THINK THE MORE THEY LEARN ABOUT THE REAL AMERICA, THEY'LL SLOWLY DIVEST THEMSELVES OF THE AMERICA THAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW RATHER THAN THE AMERICA THAT THEY EXPERIENCED.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE BENEFIT OF HAVING FOREIGN STUDENTS ON A CAMPUS LIKE UCF, I THINK IT'S GREAT.

>>WELL DOUG, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, OUR TIME IS ALREADY OVER.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US TODAY, IT WAS A FASCINATING CONVERSATION, I HOPE IT CAN CONTINUE AGAIN IN THE FUTURE, AND YOU'RE ALWAYS WELCOME BACK HERE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>>WELL, THIS IS A GREAT PROGRAM, I'M GLAD YOU DO THIS, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO THE COMMUNITY, IMPORTANT TO THE UNIVERSITY, SO THANK YOU FOR DEVOTING YOUR PERSONAL TIME AND PROFESSIONAL TIME AS WELL TO MAKE THIS POSSIBLE.

SO ANYWAY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH, IT'S AN HONOR.

>>THANK YOU.

>>AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY, WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.