>>Hello, I'm Katie Coronado.

Welcome to this episode of Global Perspectives.

I'm filling in for David Dumke.

This morning we have with us the Executive Director of ORF America.

And he is an expert in India international relations.

We have with us Mr. Dhruva Jaishankar.

Welcome, Dhruva.

>>Thank you.

>>Thank you so much for making time for us.

We know that you have a lot of things going on, especially with the new administration, with the new Trump administration and potential India trade agreements.

But first, tell us, why is India important to the US?

>>Well, thank you for having me on the show.

I'm from India and based in Washington, DC, where I run a public policy think tank.

And we look, you know, we examine and we work on a lot of issue related to India and the world more broadly, specifically, the India-US relationship.

But, you know, there's a lot more excitement and a lot more interest in India, around the world, or also in Washington.

I think it's for a few reasons.

I think a big part of it ha to do with the growing economy.

India is today the fifth largest economy in the world.

It will soon, perhaps in a few years, be the third largest economy.

It is the world' largest country by population.

It's surpassed China last year to have.

It has 1.4 billion people.

But it's also now, you know, has growing global interest.

And whether it's in the Middle East, in the Indo-Pacific, in Africa, in North America or Europe, you start seeing different ways in which India now matters to the world.

It's now a growing market.

It is now a source of talent and human capital.

Indians constitute the second largest number of migrants to the United States today.

The largest number of students of higher education.

And so, for all these reasons, you know whether it's technology, trade, defense and security, Indi now matters more to the world.

>>We talk about talent.

Can you tell us a little bit about the type of talent that India has and the type of talent that we see here in the US from India?

>>So, obviously, you know, it's a it's a large and very diverse country.

It's a developing country.

But, in the United States particularly, it's become, a source, for a lot of professionals.

There is a strong science and technology, education and training system in India.

And so you start seeing, you know, first, doctors coming to the United States and, in the 80s and 90s, then, particularly after the Y2K, some people may remember this, the Y2K crisis.

And in 2000, you sa an influx of technical talent.

And, people working on software.

But increasingly now across domains, whether it's STEM, science, technology, engineering, mathematics or business, you are seeing, a lot of Indians coming here to study graduate students, but also to work.

So, for example, the H-1b visa, which is a visa, for high skilled migration, workers in the United States, over 70% of them today now go to Indians.

>>And what, going back to your organization, we talked about the importance of India in a macro level.

But what is ORF America?

What does it stand for an what does your organization do?

>>We are affiliated with an organization called ORF the Observer Research Foundation.

It is a private, non-governmental think tank in India with three centers and three different Indian cities.

I joined them in 2019, moved to the United States to set up their first overseas office.

So ORF Americ was founded in Washington, DC.

We see it as a venue for engagement with the United States, but also with U.S. allies.

We're also kind of uniquely positioned because we're the only global South affiliated, thinktank in Washington.

And so as a result, where a lot of the issues we work on also, apply to Africa, to Latin America and Southeast Asia.

So we are doing some work in on those issues.

The four areas we've, we, we focus on are foreign and security policy, economic and trade and development policy, technology policy, and, energy and climate issues.

So those are the four main areas we work.

>>That's all of them, super important topics.

And one of them that we touched on a few minutes ago is the trade.

And so tell us what types of things we're seein now that may come into fruition.

Of cours a lot of it can be speculation, but with your expertise, what do you see happening?

>>Well, I think we'r first of all just as a backdrop.

We are in a very interesting period for the global trading order.

In some ways, this idea of sort of very open ended the world is flat.

Let's reduce trade barriers across countries through the World Trade Organization and other bodies.

That area has come to an end and so we haven't seen much progress at the World Trade Organization.

Then for a while there were regional groupings that were formed, regional trade organizations.

In the US you had NAFTA, which became the US, Mexico, Canada agreement.

But increasingly trade has become more fraught because there is competition for jobs and for manufacturing concerns about supply chain security, especially in critical and emerging technologies.

So in this backdrop, India is, for India.

The United States is the largest trade partner for the US.

India is, I think, number 9 or 10.

It's it's not, you know, not not as prominent.

India does enjoy quite a large trade surplus with the US, which is unusual because India is a like the US, a consumer economy and actually has a trade defici with most other major economies.

So I think one of the issues for the incoming Trump administration is while they value the relationship with India, how to balance the trade.

And so that has been the subject of, some discussion.

It was during the first Trump term.

He believes that India has, unduly high tariffs and wants to see some, some of that remedied.

But I think in the short term, there is the prospect of, reducing the trade deficit, through Indian purchases of oil and natural gas.

So, some of which is expected to be unlocked under a Trump administration through defense purchases, through civil aviation aircraft.

So those are some area which offer some quick and easy solutions to the concerns of the Trump administration.

But overall, I thin there is some discussion about I think a trade deal would be too strong a word, because any kind of formal trade agreement requires congressional approval, which is unlikely to come.

Some kind of trade truce is, under trade.

Understanding is certainly possible.

And I think there may be some negotiation towards that in the next year.

>>Wha do you think are the challenges that will come abou to try to come up with a deal?

>>Well, I mean, I think it really depends on, what the expectations are on the US side.

I think at the very least, they would like to see a good faith effort in India.

But there are many issues that for India are very sensitive.

Agriculture, you know, India employs a very large number of farmers, most of whom are not, and it's not large scale commercial agricultural like you see in Australia or in Europe.

So, you know, their livelihood are very politically sensitive.

So that's just one example that there are many, and sometimes it comes down to these very small items, things like nuts and poultry and tariffs on those, items.

So I think what initially it appears that the Trum administration would like to see is a good faith effort on India's part to try and, remedy what they see is an unbalanced trade.

India does have certain things that it would like to purchase more from the United States.

It would like to purchase mor energy, more defense articles.

Sometimes the obstacles are o the US side related to pricing, related to supply chai security and things like that.

>>Perfect transition.

Talk to me about security.

What are the challenges that exist in the at this moment when it comes to India-Us relations and security?

>>So, India is sort of unusual.

It's not, from the US's point of view.

It is not a treaty ally of the United States like NATO or Japan or Australia, nor is it an adversary, in the same way that China increasingly is, Russia, Iran and others.

But you have a growing and deepening partnership that has emerged between India and the US since 1998 or since 2000 or so.

So over the last 20 years.

So increasingly, you see the two militaries doing exercises together, military exercises together, all three of the Army, Air Force, Navy, of increasingly sophisticated exercises of increasing sophistication.

India now purchases more, defense equipment from the United States.

In fact, India also sells military articles to the US as well, about $3 billion, almost.

So it's a much closer partnership, but not defined in the same wa that a NATO treaty alliance is.

So a lot of it is motivated by, some shared concerns, the biggest one being shared concerns about China in a broader Indo-Pacific region.

India and China have a big border dispute.

The US and Chin obviously have their differences in the Western Pacific.

And so a lot of is motivated by that.

It's not just about China.

There are concerns about, security of maritime supply chains.

We saw attacks, by pirate and then by Houthis in the Red sea, and India, the US worked closely to kind of to, to, to address that.

The concerns about terrorism as well, in the Middle East.

So, there, there is that overlap, you know, a lot of areas of overlapping concern.

And that sort of explains the growing, convergence and cooperation between India and the US.

>>And what do you thin it'll take to get to a point of, more balance between both countries because of the issues that exist that are similar.

But again, there are there are wider issues internationally that maybe both countries don't agree on currently.

What do you think it'll take?

>>Well, no, I mean, I' not sure those will be, fixed.

I mean, the biggest, sort of I would say the bigges strategic differences, are two.

There's some there's some more minor ones.

The biggest one, I think relates to Russia.

India and Russia have had, old relationship, until quite recently, Russia was by far the largest supplier of, arms to India.

And that's changing, part of it due to reasons, related to sanctions.

Russian articles of, exces articles, their lack of their, lack of availabilit questions of payment, as well.

So, for a lot of reasons that India is diversifying and indigenizing its defense industry, but Russia remains one point of some difference over the past couple of years, though, the US government and the Biden administration did find some aspects of the India Russia cooperation, useful as well.

Because, you know, for example, this has been reported by the Washington Post.

India played a rol in, passing messages to Russia from the United States about, expressing concerns by the US and by European countries about Russia' possible use of nuclear weapons.

So that's an example where they found that there was a utility in having a partner like India that could convey those kinds of messages to Moscow.

Another point of some difference is Iran.

India again has a more positive relationship with Iran than the United States does.

And we saw this again play out a little bit when they were when there was sort of heightened tensions between Israel and Iran recently.

There's some minor differences.

I would say in Myanmar and Burma and Bangladesh and some other places, Pakistan.

But I would say the Russia really remains, the major point of strategic difference.

>>Yeah.

And Iran.

>>Iran a little bit.

>>Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

Just a little bit.

What - going back to the trad and the goods that you mentioned as Americans, what types of things, would we see increased, do you think if there's more of a partnership in that aspect potentially?

>>I think again, the focus of the Trump administration is on increasing exports, to countries like India.

So I think they're very keen.

Again, energy is a very easy one to, they'd like to see more agricultural exports.

Let's see again, that's mor sensitive, manufactured goods.

So increasing, you know, whether it's aeronautic machinery, automobile exports, things like that.

So they would like to see more of that.

India would like to see more exports of the things India has a strong capacity.

So electronic manufacturing and, you know, a growing number of iPhones today are assembled in India.

So that's really been a change in the last 3 or 4 years.

So chances are when you buy the next generation iPhone, you know, one in, one in every 3 or 4 will be made.

It will be assembled in India.

So that's been one success case.

Pharmaceuticals India exports a lot of pharmaceuticals to the United States.

Generic mostly.

So there are some areas where, I think we will see an increase.

>>And tell m a little bit about the purpose of having this, organization in DC.

You told me that previously you were in India, right?

And currently you travel t Latin America and to Japan.

Why?

Why spreading the word about India and what?

What's the importance of that?

Not only in the US.

>>Well, you know I think when, as India becomes more global, it's only natural that in various aspects of India, including public policy, become more global, India has again increasing global interest, as I mentioned.

And so we thought it was natural that, Washington, which is home to, you know, not just the US capital, it's also home to the world Bank, the IMF, it's near the United Nations.

But it's also a place where there are people working on almost every aspect of international policy, somewhere.

So Washington would be a natural place for for having an overseas center.

We've also, ORF has also since, opened up a center in the UAE, in the Middle East.

So again, it's partly, I think, a natural outgrowth of India's own, rising interest, but out of, out of Washington, we try and do a few things again.

It's a it's a, it's a good way to engage with the US and the US-India relationship with US ally.

So both transatlantic allies, NATO, the UK, but also trans Pacific allies Japan, Taiwan t some degree, Australia for sure.

So that makes it you know, it's a it's a good perch for that.

And then finally as I mentioned, you know, it's because we're one of the few developing world, affiliated thinktanks there.

We do get a lot of interest from the developing world, from, countries in Latin America, from Africa and elsewhere, who want to engage, do the same thing and engage the United States.

They have very similar concern related to trade or health or, climate justice, that, that India does.

So, in some ways that, that, that also allows us to expand, our geographic, reach and relevance.

>>An when we talk about Latin America and the rest of the world, we also, kind of think about immigration and what's happening at this moment in the US.

When you talk about students who come here and who migrate to the US and that there are the second largest number of students in the US-- >>The largest number of students there.

>>The largest number of students in the United States from another country.

Why do they choose the US an tell me a little bit about that.

>>I mean, I think they largely choose the US because, of the incredible opportunity and the quality of higher education institutions here, I think people are that's really what what attracts people.

There's also, I think, a language facility.

If you look at where else Indian students go to, it's Canada, Australia, the UK.

So obviously English language, education is highly sought after.

They, mostly are drawn to again STEM, sciences, to business.

And ofte they come as graduate students more than undergraduate students because they come with a research and interest to sort of advance, their research or their, professional skills.

One area, you know, we talk about Latin America.

One of the areas is, Latin America is perhaps the region in the world where India is least engaged, or at least, connected to, it is in some of a few areas, but but not as much as you would imagine.

And so I think part of the interest there is just really to, in some ways a new frontier.

For that kind of engagement.

And so whether it's on, technolog or critical minerals, or trade, there's now sort of a growing, interest in both sides to, to engage each other.

And so we're, we're not just it's about it's not just about the parallel trajectories of India and Latin America, but also increasingly, their cooperation as well.

>>And going back to that what countries are the main ones that you're engaging with now in Latin America?

>>There - few I mean, Brazil is very unique because India and Brazil, together in a number of groupings, international groupings.

So they actually coordinate quite closely.

In, the BRICs in G20, on climate change.

So they have actually a grouping with South Africa, India, Brazil and South Africa called IBSA, so on a lot of international institutional issues, on UN reform, India and Brazi cooperate very closely together.

So, there is that that is obviously a country of some significance.

But I think beyond that, I think, you know, Mexico, Chile, Colombi are some of the large economies.

They're all dynamic.

You starting to see Indian, tech companies in places like Chile and Uruguay.

Some interest in Mexico, which I think is a bit been a bit more difficult for some reasons, largely having to do with visas and concerns about migration.

So I think, you know, but obviously Mexico remains, you know, it's, because of USMCA because of proximity to the United States, because of the growing manufacturing sector there.

That remain an important potential partner.

So I think those those are main the main ones.

But, you know, the India's prim minister did a trip to, Guyana this year, a few months ago, and, met with the leaders of al the Caribbean countries as well.

So there is that, you know there's a small Indian diaspora in places like Trinidad and Jamaica.

So, I think that, again, there's much scope for, for closer cooperation, but it will look very different across the region.

>>I have to ask this, and David's going to kill me, but do you - did the Prim minister also meet with, Cuba?

>>Not an, I thin Cuba's not a member of Caricom, but India does hav diplomatic relations with Cuba.

It has an embassy there.

In the past, did have very good relations.

But during the Cold War, you know, Fidel Castro would come multiple times to, to India.

But, you know, from an economic point of view, it's not as robust.

>>Well let's transition on that note, because that would be a heavy note for a whole other story.

Education is education free in India.

And when the students come here with graduate degrees already that you mentioned.

Right.

And to go and pursue further degrees, how they come here prepared, they come here with, high level education.

Tell me about that.

>>So, in India, primary and secondary education, while there is a, there are governmen schools, is mostly privatized.

Some most people go to a surprising number of, a percentage of students actually go to private schools of varying quality, higher education, however, so college and university education is very much dominated by the public sector.

You do have some private, universities coming up, but really a lot of the older and more established and more prestigious universities tend to be, ten to be government, universities.

They are very low cos or free or heavily subsidized, in terms of, but what I think stands out is that there is this very strong emphasis on basic skills in science, mathematics, engineering.

And those are also where a lot of students gravitate towards very, you know, good, good students tend to gravitate towards those areas.

So there's that there is a cultural aspect to it, one set of university and by no means the only one that many people know of, are called the Indian Institutes of Technology, IITs, there were five originally there.

Now several more.

And those have trained no generations of top engineering talent who have gone on to do many things.

But, you know, when you see, like, the heads of, Google or Microsoft, you know, both of whom are India, of Indian origin, those are the kinds of peopl who tend to come out of, IITs.

But the IITs are by no means the only, sources of talent.

It's now it's a much more widespread, the Indians, similarly, there a business schools that are quite good.

But again, these tend to be, government.

The one thing that India does lack relativ to many other places is strong research, PhD level research, even in the sciences, there are not as strong incentive for, for that kind of research.

And for that many people do go abroad.

>>And do you see potential, opportunity in more partnerships with academic opportunities, for example, we know that the United States needs to work more on STEM related, you know, success, if you will.

And then maybe from the India perspective if they need more help with or, you know, partnerships with research and higher education, do you see that as an opportunity?

>>There is an opportunity.

It's it's mostly been unrealized.

There've been some very small steps taken recently, to facilitate, interactions.

So, for example, many American universities were initially interested in setting up campuses in India where they could offer, high quality education training, but at a lower cost.

And, you know, bring it closer to students in India.

That hasn't materialized for a number of reasons.

There's now, some experiments being done.

And one state in western India, to attract some foreign universities there and sort of give them some regulatory carve outs and incentives to, to come.

So we'll see where that goes.

But, a lo more could be done in that area.

Another thing that, frankly, is lacking is, exchange program.

So, until recently, there are more Americans studying in the city of Florence than in all of India.

Right And that shouldn't be the case.

I mean, this is, again, as I mentioned, the fifth largest economy.

It's it's a very large population.

It's a very diverse country.

So I think the scop for exchange programs, you know, and part of it has to do with recognition of credit, that can be expanded significantly.

Again, there's greater interest in bringing some of that education, that lower cost closer to India.

But, a lot of tha hasn't fully materialized yet.

>>Okay.

So I have so many other questions now that our time is almost up, we have the film industry in India that is one of the best in the world, right?

We have, safety, questions about when students do travel or when tourists go to India.

So let's talk first about, Bollywood.

What can you tell me about that?

And, and what can students or even people who want to get involved in the film industry know about that?

>>So, you know, Bollywood, India produces more films, feature films than any other country in the world.

Bollywood.

Based in Bombay.

It's a Hindi film industry is thriving.

But there are new kinds of film also emerging.

I would say two two things to focus on.

One is southern India has its own distinct film industry, and that's been quite successful.

In fact, it's doing very well across India and abroad.

So, for example, there was a movie called RRR that came out a couple of years ago.

It was a big surprisingly successful in th United States and won an Oscar.

So, in the Southern Indian film industry is taking off.

Another thing is now online TV shows have just grown and expanded, and so there's a lot of really good, very, you know, thought provoking, content coming out of India sometimes in regional languages which was just not really done that, you know, they didn' have the budgets for it before, but now it's reaching both again, a pan-Indian and a global audience, you know, through Netflix Amazon Prime, things like that.

So, it is now growing, but the industry is also changing in some dramatic ways.

>>Yes, very dramatically.

And then when we talk about going to India, whether it's to be a part of Bollywood or student exchanges or tourism, how safe is India?

>>I mean, I think safety hasn't been a major concern, for visitors.

I mean, many go now on, guided tours and things like that.

But it hasn't been, you know, there were concerns previously about terrorism.

So, you know, at least in the, you know, US State Department, India went up in the list of, of countries of concern for that reason, that's fortunately declined.

So, now it's become, you know, the incidents of terrorist attacks on major urban centers have really stopped over the past decade, for a variety of reasons.

So, I don't think safety has been a major concern.

They were having periodic concerns against violence, of violence against women.

But statistically, it's not particularly higher.

I mean, they get a lot of attention, as they should, but, statistically, India's not seem to be, you know, much higher than many other parts of the world.

>>You you talked about domestic violence.

Is that what you're referring too?

>>No you know, into incidents of attacks against women who are traveling alone, for example, like that.

Yeah.

So there were there were many cases that got a lot of, attention in India and, and around the world seemed to deter a lot of travelers who are not going in groups.

But I think that that has also, declined as well, just as the number of tourists have gone up.

Yeah.

>>What else can you tell us?

We have 30 seconds.

Thank you for your time.

Anything that we're missing tha you want the audience to know?

>>I think, you know, a lot of people, India is much more diverse than I think a lot of people understand and appreciate linguistically, religiously.

You know, the food is very different if you go to different parts of India.

So, you know I was traveling in a few places, a few months ago and, there were no foreign tourists there.

And so I think the one thing is people need to be exposed more to India.

>>All right.

Well, I think I may take you u on that and I may go to India.

Well, thank you very much for your time.

And thank you so much.

And till next time, this is Global Perspectives.