♪ MUSIC ♪ >>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

FROM OUR HOME STUDIOS, I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO.

WELCOME.

>>TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY AMBASSADOR GORDON GRAY, WHO IS A FORMER US AMBASSADOR TO TUNISIA, AND ALSO HELD A NUMBER OF OTHER POSTS PRIMARILY IN THE MIDDLE EAST, NORTH AFRICAN REGION.

AMBASSADOR GRAY IS CURRENTLY THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER OF THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW, AMBASSADOR.

>>THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>>AMBASSADOR, BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE IN TUNISIA, CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON THERE TODAY?

>>CERTAINLY.

LET ME START BY SAYING I WAS THERE FROM 2009 TO 2012.

SO IN THE WANING DAYS OF THE BEN ALI DICTATORSHIP, AND THEN IN THE VERY START OF THE ARAB SPRING THROUGH THE FIRST FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS THAT THEY HAD IN OCTOBER OF 2011.

WHEN THE TUNISIANS DRAFTED THEIR CONSTITUTION, WHICH THEY COMPLETED IN 2014, THEY WERE VERY WARY OF CENTRALIZING POWER IN THE PRESIDENCY BECAUSE OF THEIR EXPERIENCE UNDER BEN ALI.

NOT A PERFECT ANALOGY, BUT NOT DISSIMILAR TO THE DRAFTERS OF OUR CONSTITUTION WHO WERE VERY WARY OF HAVING ANY SORT OF SYSTEM THAT LOOKED LIKE A MONARCHY.

SO THEY DIVIDED THE POWERS AMONG THREE DIFFERENT BODIES OF GOVERNMENT.

ONE WAS THE PRESIDENCY.

ONE WAS THE PRIME MINISTRY, AND ONE WAS THE PARLIAMENT.

AND THAT HAD ITS PLUSES AND MINUSES.

I THINK IN THE UNITED STATES, WE SEE THE BENEFITS OF CHECKS AND BALANCES, BUT WE ALSO SEE SOMETIMES THAT THE GRIDLOCK THAT IT PRODUCES.

FAST-FORWARDING TO JULY 25TH OF THIS YEAR, WHICH WAS REPUBLIC DAY, THE DAY THAT TUNISIANS CELEBRATE THE ABOLITION OF THE MONARCHY IN 1957 AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE REPUBLIC, THERE WERE WIDESPREAD ANTI-GOVERNMENT DEMONSTRATIONS REALLY AIMED AGAINST THE PARLIAMENT AND THE PRIME MINISTER FOR THE GOVERNMENTS, ON WHAT MANY PERCEIVED TO BE INEPT HANDLING IN, SPECIFICALLY, OF THE PANDEMIC.

THEY WERE NOT SUCCESSFULLY ADMINISTERING VACCINES.

HOSPITALS WERE OVERWHELMED.

TUNISIA HAS THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA DEATH RATE IN AFRICA FROM COVID 19.

THERE WERE MANY OTHER ISSUES AS WELL, FRUSTRATION ABOUT CORRUPTION, FRUSTRATION ABOUT THE ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, FRUSTRATION ABOUT THE POLITICAL GRIDLOCK IN TUNISIA.

AND THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT AND PARLIAMENT WERE NOT ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY ADDRESS THESE ISSUES.

SO IN THE EVENING OF JULY 25TH, THE PRESIDENT, KAIS SAIED, INVOKED ARTICLE 80 OF THE TUNISIAN CONSTITUTION, WHICH HE INTERPRETED GAVE HIM WIDE LATITUDE TO, IN HIS WORDS, "FREEZE PARLIAMENT, LIFT PARLIAMENTARY IMMUNITY, AND FIRE THE PRIME MINISTER."

THAT'S WHAT HE DID.

THUS FAR, THE POPULAR REACTION HAS BEEN MOSTLY WELCOMING TO HIS STEPS.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, SOME HAVE EXPRESSED CONCERN ABOUT THE EXTRALEGALITY, BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH KAIS SAIED, BEFORE BECOMING PRESIDENT, HAD BEEN A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, IT'S DIFFICULT TO READ ARTICLE 80 OBJECTIVELY AND SAY, HE DIDN'T EXCEED THE AUTHORITIES THAT IT GRANTS THE PRESIDENT.

>>AMBASSADOR, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT TUNISIA, OBVIOUSLY SINCE BEN ALI FELL AND THE BUILDING OF A DEMOCRACY.

WHY SHOULD THE UNITED STATES CARE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN TUNISIA?

AND WHAT SHOULD THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BE DOING ABOUT THIS?

>>I WOULD SAY TWO SETS OF REASONS THAT EXPLAIN WHY THE UNITED STATES SHOULD CARE.

ONE I WOULD PUT IN THE BASKET OF GEO STRATEGIC REASONS.

TUNISIA ACTUALLY HAS MORE COASTLINE ALONG THE MEDITERRANEAN THAN DOES FRANCE.

SO ITS STABILITY IS KEY TO THE STABILITY OF NATO'S SOUTHERN FLANK.

TWO ISSUES IN PARTICULAR THAT ARE OF IMPORTANCE TO OUR NATO ALLIES, BUT ALSO IMPORTANT TO UNITED STATES.

ONE IS COUNTER-TERRORISM AND WITH LIBYA, NEXT DOOR, TUNISIA DEFINITELY LIVES IN A DIFFICULT NEIGHBORHOOD.

AND THE OTHER IS THE MIGRATION ACROSS THE MEDITERRANEAN, NOT JUST BY TUNISIANS, BUT BY OTHER NORTH AFRICANS AND BY AFRICANS WHO MIGRATE NORTH SEEKING TO CROSS THE MEDITERRANEAN, UNFORTUNATELY, AT GREAT COST TO THEMSELVES.

SO THAT'S THE GEO-STRATEGIC REASON.

I WOULD POSIT THERE'S THIS SECOND SET OF REASONS THAT EXPLAIN WHY THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT THE FATE OF WHAT IS A RELATIVELY SMALL COUNTRY, POPULATION OF 12 MILLION PEOPLE.

AND THE REASON IS THAT TUNISIA WAS THE FIRST COUNTRY IN THE ARAB WORLD TO LAUNCH ON THIS PATH, IN LATE 2010 THROUGH 2011, TOWARD MAKING THE TRANSITION TOWARD DEMOCRACY.

CERTAINLY AS EVENTS, NOT ONLY ON JULY 25TH BUT BEFORE HAVE SHOWN, IT'S BEEN AN IMPERFECT TRANSITION.

I DON'T THINK ANY TUNISIAN WOULD TELL YOU ANY DIFFERENTLY.

BUT THERE'VE BEEN SOME VERY IMPORTANT MILESTONES.

2011, WE SAW THE FIRST FREE AND FAIR ELECTIONS IN TUNISIAN HISTORY.

THERE'VE BEEN SEVERAL PEACEFUL TRANSFERS OF POWER FROM ONE GOVERNMENT TO ANOTHER.

WHEN THERE WAS A POLITICAL CRISIS IN 2013, CIVIL SOCIETIES STEPPED IN TO MEDIATE THE CRISIS.

THE POLITICAL PARTIES BACKED DOWN, AGREED TO THE MEDIATION.

AND THAT EFFORT WAS RECOGNIZED IN 2015, WITH THE AWARDING OF THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO THE TUNISIAN NATIONAL DIALOGUE QUARTET.

SO IF THE UNITED STATES IS SERIOUS ABOUT PROMOTING ITS DEMOCRATIC VALUES ABROAD, PARTICULARLY AT A TIME WHEN AUTHORITARIANISM IS RISING AROUND THE WORLD, AND WE WANT TO SHOW OUR COMPETITORS SUCH AS CHINA AND RUSSIA THAT THERE IS A BETTER MODEL, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE UNITED STATES TO SUPPORT ANY EMERGING DEMOCRACY, BUT CERTAINLY TUNISIA.

WHEN I WAS IN TUNISIA, THE LATE SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN CAME TO VISIT, AND HE VERY EARLY ON GRASPED THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND IN TUNISIA, WHICH IS WHY HE CAME, AND WHY HE RETURNED, AND WHY HE WAS SUCH A SUPPORTER OF THE TRANSITION.

AND I'LL NEVER FORGET, HE TOLD ME IF IT CAN'T SUCCEED HERE, IT'S NOT GOING TO SUCCEED ANYWHERE.

AND THAT'S WHY IT'S IN OUR INTEREST TO SUPPORT IT.

>>AMBASSADOR, THANK YOU FOR THAT BACKGROUND.

CAN YOU HELP US PAINT THE PICTURE ABOUT THE STATE OF MEDIA IN TUNISIA CURRENTLY?

IS THERE FREEDOM OF THE PRESS?

>>YES.

THERE'S A VERY VIBRANT PRESS NOW.

IT IS IN COMPLETE CONTRAST TO WHAT IT WAS LIKE UNDER BEN ALI.

RIGHT AFTER JULY 25TH, I WANT TO SAY IT WAS MONDAY, JULY 26TH, IT MAY HAVE BEEN A TUESDAY, JULY 27TH, THE OFFICES OF AL JAZEERA WERE RAIDED.

BUT THOSE JOURNALISTS ARE, THEY'RE STILL WORKING.

THEY'RE JUST NOT WORKING OUT OF THEIR OFFICE, AS THE TUNISIAN JOURNALISTS UNION HAVE GIVEN THEM THEIR OFFICES TO WORK FROM.

BUT THERE ARE FOREIGN MEDIA, INCLUDING US MEDIA, REPORTING FROM TUNISIA FREELY.

THERE ARE THE ARTICLES BEING WRITTEN, THE STORIES BEING FILED.

SOME OF THEM ARE CRITICAL OF THE SITUATION THERE.

SOCIAL MEDIA HAS NOT BEEN CENSORED OR CURTAILED.

AND THERE WAS SUCH WIDESPREAD CENSORSHIP UNDER BEN ALI THAT YOUTUBE WAS BLOCKED, FOR EXAMPLE.

FOREIGN WEBSITES WERE BLOCKED.

IF WE HAD BEEN DOING THIS SHOW IN THE BEN ALI ERA, THERE'S NO WAY THAT ANYONE IN TUNISIA WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET TO IT ON THE INTERNET, JUST AS AN EXAMPLE.

>>SO WHAT MADE TUNISIA DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER "ARAB SPRING NATIONS?"

WHY DID IT SUCCEED?

AND OF COURSE, IF YOU LOOK AT TUNISIAN HISTORY, THEY DID HAVE SOME PROGRESSIVE ELEMENTS IN THEIR GOVERNMENT, EVEN UNDER A HABIB BOURGUIBA AND BEN ALI, SUCH AS WOMEN'S RIGHTS, WAS THAT WHAT MADE DEMOCRACY WORK, AT LEAST FOR THE TIME BEING?

>>I THINK IT WAS A CONFLUENCE OF FACTORS, SOME OF WHICH YOU HAVE SUGGESTED AND SOME OF WHICH EVEN PREDATES THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE TUNISIAN REPUBLIC.

THERE WAS A REFORMIST ELEMENT IN TUNISIA IN THE 19TH CENTURY.

SLAVERY WAS ABOLISHED IN TUNISIA BEFORE IT WAS ABOLISHED IN THE UNITED STATES, FOR EXAMPLE.

>>BUT FAST-FORWARDING TO HABIB BOURGUIBA, THE LEADER FOR NATION INDEPENDENCE AND THE FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC.

UNLIKE MOST OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, RATHER THAN INVESTING HEAVILY IN THE MILITARY, HE INVESTED HEAVILY IN EDUCATION.

HE INSISTED THAT EDUCATION BE REQUIRED FOR NOT JUST BOYS BUT ALSO FOR GIRLS FROM THE AGE OF 6 TO 16.

AS YOU NOTED, WOMEN HAVE MORE RIGHTS IN TUNISIA THAN ELSEWHERE IN THE ARAB WORLD.

THE POLYGAMY, FOR EXAMPLE, IS OUTLAWED.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S OUTLAWED IN ANY OTHER ARAB COUNTRY.

I'VE NEVER SPOKEN TO A SWISS AUDIENCE.

IF I DID, I WOULDN'T SAY THIS MAYBE, BUT THE WOMEN IN TUNISIA GOT THE RIGHT TO VOTE BEFORE WOMEN IN SWITZERLAND DID.

SO I THINK THE ROLE OF WOMEN, THE ROLE OF EDUCATION IS IMPORTANT.

THE FACT THAT IT IS A RELATIVELY HOMOGENEOUS SOCIETY HAS HELD, IT'S A WELL-EDUCATED COUNTRY.

THERE'S BEEN GREAT EXPOSURE TO DEMOCRATIC NORMS IN LARGE PART THROUGH THE FRENCH MEDIA, THE FACT THAT THERE'S SO MANY TUNISIAN EX-PATS LIVING IN FRANCE AND ELSEWHERE IN EUROPE.

AND I'D ALSO NOTE THAT MANY OF THE TUNISIAN POLITICAL LEADERS FOLLOWING THE REVOLUTION CHOSE EXILE UNDER THE BEN ALI YEARS IN WESTERN EUROPE.

SO YOU HAD MONSEF MARZOUKI, WHO WAS THE FIRST POST-REVOLUTIONARY PRESIDENT, WAS IN EXILE IN FRANCE.

HAMADI JEBALI, THE FIRST PRIME MINISTER AFTER THE REVOLUTION FROM THE MODERATE ISLAMIST PARTY, SPENT SOME OF HIS TIME IN EXILE IN SPAIN.

RUCHED GHANNOUCHI, SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT, STILL THE HEAD OF ENNAHDA PARTY, CHOSE EXILE IN LONDON.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY CHOSE EXILE IN DEMOCRACIES BECAUSE THEY HAD A PREDISPOSITION TO DEMOCRATIC NORMS, OR WHETHER THEY WERE IN INFLUENCE.

BUT EITHER WAY, THE RESULT WAS WHEN THEY RETURNED TO TUNISIA AND ASSUMED THE POSITIONS IN GOVERNMENT THAT THEY DID, THEY WERE VERY WELL VERSED, NOT JUST IN WHAT DEMOCRACY MEANT, BUT WHAT THE GIVE AND TAKE OF DEMOCRATIC, LOWERCASE D, POLITICS MEANS.

AND I KNOW, DAVID, YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN EGYPT AND YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I DID, THIS IS THE REVERSE OF WHAT WE SAW IN EGYPT WITH THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD, WHERE IT WAS VERY MUCH AN INSULAR ORGANIZATION WITHOUT MUCH SOPHISTICATION ABOUT COUNTRIES OUTSIDE OF EGYPT'S BORDERS.

>>AMBASSADOR, IN A RECENT ARTICLE I READ IN THE NEW YORK TIMES, IT SAYS THAT THE CURRENT PRESIDENT SAYS THAT HE IS NOT A DICTATOR.

AND HE TOLD THE REPORTER THAT HE WAS WELCOMING HER TO TUNISIA, WHERE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IS PROTECTED AND WHERE THEY HAVE NO INTERFERENCE IN PERSONAL FREEDOMS.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

HE USED THE WORD DICTATOR, THAT HE'S NOT.

WHY WOULD HE START A CAREER AS A DICTATOR?

AND I KNOW THAT'S SOMETHING THAT IS AN EXTREME ASSUMPTION OR QUOTE, BUT DEFINITELY FROM THE ARTICLE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES DURING THIS WEEK WHERE ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING.

>>WELL, I THINK WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO DO IN THAT QUOTATION WAS PARAPHRASE SHAH DE GAULLE, WHO MADE A SIMILAR COMMENT, "WHY WOULD I START MY POLITICAL CAREER BY BEING A DICTATOR?"

I GUESS THERE ARE TWO PARTS TO YOUR QUESTION.

ONE IS WHETHER PERSONAL FREEDOMS HAVE BEEN CURTAILED.

AS FAR AS I CAN TELL, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME TARGETED ARRESTS OF, I'M THINKING IN PARTICULAR OF MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.

WHICH CALLS INTO QUESTION PRESIDENT SAIED'S LIFTING OF PARLIAMENTARY IMMUNITY, WHICH APPEARS TO BE EXTRALEGAL, AT LEAST TO MY READING OF ARTICLE 80.

BUT ALSO THE REASONS THEY'VE BEEN ARRESTED ARE NOT CLEAR.

I MEAN, ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT WHO WAS ARRESTED HAD BEEN IN JAIL FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS FOR INSULTING THE MILITARY.

SO AGAIN, NOT CLEAR, BUT HE'S AN INDEPENDENT.

AGAIN, UNCLEAR WHY HE WAS ARRESTED, BUT CERTAINLY IF YOUR, FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, PERSONAL FREEDOMS HAVE BEEN CURTAILED.

BUT IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AVERAGE CITIZEN, THE ANSWER IS NO.

LIKE I SAID BEFORE, THERE'S BEEN NO RESTRICTIONS ON FREEDOM OF SPEECH, ON THE INTERNET, ANY OF THE CENSORSHIP THAT WE HAD SEEN BEFORE.

PRESIDENT SAIED DID BAN PUBLIC GATHERINGS OF MORE THAN THREE PEOPLE, WHICH CERTAINLY SOUNDS TO AMERICAN EARS AS IF AN INFRINGEMENT ON THE RIGHT OF ASSOCIATION, BUT IT'S BEEN WIDELY IGNORED AND IT HASN'T BEEN ENFORCED.

I WOULD SAY FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, THERE HAS NOT BEEN AN INFRINGEMENT ON PERSONAL FREEDOMS AS FAR AS EVERYDAY LIFE GOES.

>>I'D LIKE TO GO BACK FOR A MINUTE, BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE WHEN THIS VERY WELL-ENTRENCHED REGIME COLLAPSED.

WAS THAT A SURPRISE TO YOU AT THE TIME?

AND WHAT DID YOU RECOMMEND THE US GOVERNMENT DO TO KIND OF RESPOND TO CHANGE THAT SEEMED AT LEAST ESSENTIALLY ORGANIC TO TUNISIA?

>>THE FACT THAT THERE WAS WIDESPREAD DISSATISFACTION WITH BEN ALI, WITH THE CORRUPTION OF HIS FAMILY, THAT WAS WIDELY KNOWN.

AND SO THAT ELEMENT OF THE REVOLUTION WAS NOT A SURPRISE.

BUT CERTAINLY THE TIMING WAS AND THE FACT THAT EVENTS TRANSPIRED SO QUICKLY.

IT BEGAN DECEMBER 17TH, 2010, WHEN MOHAMMAD BOUAZIZI, UNDEREMPLOYED UNIVERSITY GRADUATE, SET HIMSELF ON FIRE, AND IT JUST ESCALATED.

DEMONSTRATIONS SPREAD FROM THE CENTER OF THE COUNTRY, WHICH IS ECONOMICALLY DISADVANTAGED, WHERE BOUAZIZI LIVED, TO THE MAJOR CITIES ALONG THE COAST.

AND EXACTLY FOUR WEEKS LATER, JANUARY 14TH, 2011, BEN ALI FLED.

SO CERTAINLY SURPRISED BY HOW QUICKLY IT HAPPENED.

FRANKLY, I THINK THE TUNISIANS WERE SURPRISED AT HOW QUICKLY IT HAPPENED.

CERTAINLY, BEN ALI AND HIS FAMILY WERE SURPRISED AT HOW QUICKLY IT HAPPENED.

>>OUR RECOMMENDATIONS AT THE TIME WERE THAT THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT SUPPORT THE TRANSITION, AND THERE WERE SOME VERY SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS WE SUGGESTED AS FAR AS TYPES OF ASSISTANCE.

IN SOME WAYS, THERE WAS RECEPTIVITY IN WASHINGTON TO THE RECOMMENDATIONS.

PRESIDENT OBAMA RECEIVED THE INTERIM PRIME MINISTER, BEJI CAID ESSEBSI, IN THE OVAL OFFICE ON OCTOBER 7TH, 2011.

AND FOLLOWING THAT MEETING ANNOUNCED A NUMBER OF PROGRAMS TO SUPPORT THE TRANSITION.

ONE WAS SOVEREIGN LOAN GUARANTEES TO HELP THE COUNTRY'S FISCAL SITUATION.

ANOTHER ONE WAS BRINGING BACK PEACE CORPS INTO THE COUNTRY, WHICH HAD A LARGE PROGRAM IN UNTIL THE 90S.

AN IMPORTANT ONE WAS THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A TUNISIAN AMERICAN ENTERPRISE FUND TO FOSTER ENTREPRENEURSHIP AND PARTICULARLY TO FOSTER JOB CREATION.

BECAUSE IT WAS CLEAR AT THE TIME OF THE REVOLUTION, JUST AS IT'S BEEN CLEAR IN THE DECADE SINCE, THAT UNEMPLOYMENT WAS A MOTIVATING FACTOR AND WAS A LONGTERM STRUCTURAL ISSUE THAT THE TUNISIANS NEEDED TO DEAL WITH.

SO THERE WERE SOME SPECIFIC RECOMMENDATIONS.

OTHER RECOMMENDATIONS WERE LONGER TERM SUCH AS THE PROVISION OF SECURITY ASSISTANCE.

BUT BY AND LARGE, I THINK THE UNITED STATES DID WELL IN ITS RESPONSE IN TERMS OF SUPPORTING THE REVOLUTION, AND THE ASSISTANCE LEVEL HAS CONTINUED.

>>WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE EDUCATION SYSTEM THERE TODAY?

>>I THINK THAT ASSESSING THE EDUCATION SYSTEM DEPENDS ON, LIKE THE ADAGE IN WASHINGTON, WHERE YOU STAND DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU SIT.

I HAD SERVED IN CAIRO FROM 2002 TO 2005, AND I THOUGHT THAT THE EGYPTIAN EDUCATION SYSTEM PRODUCED A GREAT NUMBER OF UNIVERSITY GRADUATES WHO REALLY WEREN'T PREPARED FOR THE MODERN DAY WORKFORCE.

DAVID, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU AGREE, HAVING LIVED THERE, BUT THAT WAS CERTAINLY MY ASSESSMENT.

AND TUNISIA, BY CONTRAST, HAD A GOOD EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM THAT PRODUCED ENGINEERS AND PEOPLE REALLY WITH THE SKILLS NEEDED FOR THE 21ST CENTURY WORKFORCE.

>>THE PROBLEM IS IT PRODUCED TOO MANY, IN ONE SENSE, IF ONE CAN SAY THAT.

I'M NOT ANTI-EDUCATION, BUT JUST FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE, THERE WAS AN OVER-SUPPLY OF SKILLED GRADUATES AND AN UNDER-SUPPLY OF JOBS TO ABSORB ALL THOSE UNIVERSITY GRADUATES.

AND SO THE RESULT IS THAT EITHER BRAIN DRAIN, WHERE PEOPLE GO TO EUROPE, PRIMARILY TO FRANCE.

SOME COME TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT THERE'S NOT A LARGE TUNISIAN EX-PAT POPULATION HERE.

OR FRUSTRATION FROM THOSE WHO HAVE THE SKILLS, HAVE BEEN EDUCATED, BUT HAVE HIGH ASPIRATIONS, BUT THE TUNISIAN MARKET BEING A RELATIVELY SMALL MARKET IS JUST NOT ADEQUATE TO EMPLOY THEM.

>>YOU'RE MENTIONING THE ECONOMY AS A WEAKNESS, OBVIOUSLY, THAT'S REMAINED WITH TUNISIA AND ACTUALLY BEEN EXACERBATED BY THE COVID PANDEMIC.

BUT I WANT TO ASK, ARE YOU STILL OPTIMISTIC?

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN JOHN MCCAIN'S QUOTE THERE THAT IF IT CAN'T WORK THERE, WON'T WORK ANYWHERE.

>>I REMAIN OPTIMISTIC.

I HAVE TO BE HONEST, I'M A LITTLE LESS OPTIMISTIC TODAY THAN I WOULD HAVE BEEN IF YOU HAD ASKED ME THE QUESTION ON JULY 24TH.

BUT THE REASON FOR MY OPTIMISM IS THE ROBUST NATURE OF TUNISIAN CIVIL SOCIETY.

THE FACT THAT IT'S EXPERIENCED AND THE FACT THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO RETURN TO THE AUTHORITARIANISM THAT THEY LIVED UNDER BEN ALI.

WE'RE NOT GIVING HIM A GREEN LIGHT.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO BACK TO AUTHORITARIANISM.

SO I REMAIN AN OPTIMIST AND I HOPE THAT EVENTS PROVE MY OPTIMISM TO BE WELL PLACED.

>>THANK YOU.

WE HAVE ABOUT 30 SECONDS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN SHOULD DO IN A CASE LIKE THIS?

>>I THINK HE AND HIS ADMINISTRATION NEED TO UNDERSCORE THE NEED FOR PRESIDENT SAIED TO RESPECT THE CONSTITUTION AND THE STATE OF EMERGENCY THAT HE'S DECLARED WITHIN 30 DAYS.

AND I ALSO THINK THE UNITED STATES SHOULD CONTINUE TO PROVIDE ASSISTANCE TO TUNISIA, AS IT HAS BEEN DOING.

>>AMBASSADOR GORDON GRAY, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING TO US.

IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANK YOU FOR BEING ON THE SHOW TODAY.

>>IT'S BEEN MY PLEASURE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, DAVID.

GOOD TO MEET YOU, KATIE.

AND THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

>>AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.